Comments on: Shuttleworth Collection http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=shuttleworth-collection Airpower and British society, 1908-1941 Fri, 25 May 2012 16:07:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Ian Evans http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-132369 Ian Evans Mon, 08 Mar 2010 13:06:21 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-132369 Quite a challenge, given the limited number of ways of actuating a variable pitch propeller. How about the Manual Variable Pitch propeller that was fitted to a Gipsy Major (and I think flew in a Chipmunk)? That had the pilot winding a handle round and round to change pitch. At a different scale, are there any Curtiss Electric propellers still flying - at least with the control boxes full of valves (alias vacuum tubes)? Quite a challenge, given the limited number of ways of actuating a variable pitch propeller. How about the Manual Variable Pitch propeller that was fitted to a Gipsy Major (and I think flew in a Chipmunk)? That had the pilot winding a handle round and round to change pitch.
At a different scale, are there any Curtiss Electric propellers still flying - at least with the control boxes full of valves (alias vacuum tubes)?

]]> By: Airminded · Duxford and North Weald http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-131674 Airminded · Duxford and North Weald Tue, 02 Mar 2010 13:51:51 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-131674 [...] day after the Shuttleworth Collection visit, Trevor again kindly offered his services as chauffeur and guide, this time to Imperial War [...] [...] day after the Shuttleworth Collection visit, Trevor again kindly offered his services as chauffeur and guide, this time to Imperial War [...]

]]> By: JDK http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-131374 JDK Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:24:46 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-131374 Ian, Some fair comment there, but more to be said. I've found my notes and some refs, plus a photo of a Ratier fitted to the Gypsy at Old Warden, so I'll post all that on my blog next week, DV. This weekend I've some real aeroplanes to play with at the RAAF Museum's Pageant (plugette, see Brett's Twitter link). In the meantime, I can't think of a VP prop type (as in mechanism, rather than brand) that isn't (or hasn't been) active on a vintage aircraft somewhere in the world. Can you suggest one? Regards, Ian,
Some fair comment there, but more to be said. I've found my notes and some refs, plus a photo of a Ratier fitted to the Gypsy at Old Warden, so I'll post all that on my blog next week, DV. This weekend I've some real aeroplanes to play with at the RAAF Museum's Pageant (plugette, see Brett's Twitter link). In the meantime, I can't think of a VP prop type (as in mechanism, rather than brand) that isn't (or hasn't been) active on a vintage aircraft somewhere in the world. Can you suggest one?
Regards,

]]> By: Ian Evans http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-131164 Ian Evans Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:12:16 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-131164 Point was that the Ratier was the best choice available for that particular application at the time, and its disadvantages didn't demand immediate replacement. Think of it as flying Derailleur gear perhaps "c'est brutale, mais ca marche". Yes, ther's no chance of it meeting modern standards (but even now variable pitch props get certification problems). Suspect the major difficulty would be with the bicycle pump. Point was that the Ratier was the best choice available for that particular application at the time, and its disadvantages didn't demand immediate replacement. Think of it as flying Derailleur gear perhaps "c'est brutale, mais ca marche".
Yes, ther's no chance of it meeting modern standards (but even now variable pitch props get certification problems). Suspect the major difficulty would be with the bicycle pump.

]]> By: JDK http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-131000 JDK Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:55:02 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-131000 Fair call on the replacement dates on the Ratier props, apologies! No animus against Ratier - nor French material. But I'd bet you couldn't certify them today, and I'd not fly in a twin so equipped. Just look up how they worked. Fair call on the replacement dates on the Ratier props, apologies! No animus against Ratier - nor French material. But I'd bet you couldn't certify them today, and I'd not fly in a twin so equipped. Just look up how they worked.

]]> By: Ian Evans http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-130992 Ian Evans Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:04:36 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-130992 After being kept off the site for too long by a new censorship program at work I feel a burst of ubergeekery coming on (sorry, clean out of umlauts). What's the animus againt Ratier props? Is it because they is French? In fact the first Comet to fly 'CSP/E1 did so with Hamilton Standard propellers; they were rejected because of weight, complications and development time required (DH 88, Ogilvie D. pub Airlife 1984/1988, incudes pictures of the installation). It's also not correct to say they were discarded immediately after the race, 'CSR still had Ratiers in December '34 for a mail flight to the (then) Belgian Congo (another photo in Ogivie), and 'CSP, when in Portuguese markings as CS-AAJ in 1935 had them too. Ironically, F-ANPZ, built for the French government did have Hamilton Standard units, while the last Comet built, 'DEF (July '35) had Ratiers. 'CSS retained Ratiers throughout her RAF service, and they weren't replaced until 1937 when Clouston ( (The Dangerous Skies, Clouston A. E., Pan Books 1956) had Gypsy VI engines fitted, and he included Hydramatic propellers, still only two position though. Hope this quoting of sources doesn't imperil my amateur status. After being kept off the site for too long by a new censorship program at work I feel a burst of ubergeekery coming on (sorry, clean out of umlauts). What's the animus againt Ratier props? Is it because they is French?
In fact the first Comet to fly 'CSP/E1 did so with Hamilton Standard propellers; they were rejected because of weight, complications and development time required (DH 88, Ogilvie D. pub Airlife 1984/1988, incudes pictures of the installation). It's also not correct to say they were discarded immediately after the race, 'CSR still had Ratiers in December '34 for a mail flight to the (then) Belgian Congo (another photo in Ogivie), and 'CSP, when in Portuguese markings as CS-AAJ in 1935 had them too. Ironically, F-ANPZ, built for the French government did have Hamilton Standard units, while the last Comet built, 'DEF (July '35) had Ratiers.
'CSS retained Ratiers throughout her RAF service, and they weren't replaced until 1937 when Clouston ( (The Dangerous Skies, Clouston A. E., Pan Books 1956) had Gypsy VI engines fitted, and he included Hydramatic propellers, still only two position though.
Hope this quoting of sources doesn't imperil my amateur status.

]]> By: JDK http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-130604 JDK Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:16:33 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-130604 Ah, the 'why they don't have airshows in the UK winter' effect. Give it another go in the summer, Chris, whichever year you get one. More seriously, the Shuttleworth Collection is one of the most important collections of aircraft - as they fly, and are original in construction and engines, in almost all cases, and unlike many others. They therefore perform as originals as far as is safely reasonable. You don't see an Avro 504 looped anywhere else. As well as being a good day out, actually experiencing the real thing in action is worth a packet of armchair theorising. They also provide a core of real, practical tested data on how to build, maintain and fly these types. They deserve our support for that. Flying days are a full day's airshow once a month on Summer Sundays and alternating with flying evenings on a Saturday afternoon in the same period. Mrs JDK and I built our last around-the-world trip on two Old Warden dates. Don't miss them! Ah, the 'why they don't have airshows in the UK winter' effect.

Give it another go in the summer, Chris, whichever year you get one.

More seriously, the Shuttleworth Collection is one of the most important collections of aircraft - as they fly, and are original in construction and engines, in almost all cases, and unlike many others. They therefore perform as originals as far as is safely reasonable. You don't see an Avro 504 looped anywhere else.

As well as being a good day out, actually experiencing the real thing in action is worth a packet of armchair theorising. They also provide a core of real, practical tested data on how to build, maintain and fly these types. They deserve our support for that.

Flying days are a full day's airshow once a month on Summer Sundays and alternating with flying evenings on a Saturday afternoon in the same period.

Mrs JDK and I built our last around-the-world trip on two Old Warden dates. Don't miss them!

]]> By: Chris Williams http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-130562 Chris Williams Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:52:52 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-130562 Ta for pics and report, Brett, and ta for the comments, JDK. I used to go to the Shuttleworth Collection once in while as a child. I remember it as cold. Really, really cold inside. Ta for pics and report, Brett, and ta for the comments, JDK. I used to go to the Shuttleworth Collection once in while as a child. I remember it as cold. Really, really cold inside.

]]> By: JDK http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-130537 JDK Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:51:43 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-130537 Sorry Brett, Bad semi academic pun coming up... That (air)field is my field! Grone. (I also think I've got all the guides, books and listings the Shuttleworth Collection have published as well as many years of talking to the crews.) The Savage Skywriting story's an interesting one - even wrote over New York with SE5as! Not only is the Shuttleworth's Hind an ex-Afghan example, so are the Canadian Aviation Museum's and RAF Museum's examples, as well as other survivors, while the RAFM and Shuttleworth's one (originally) appeared in Afghan colours. (The RAF Museum's <i>Hind</i> is at Cosford - the <i>Harts</i> are at Hendon). A couple of years ago another cache of Hawker bits - frames, wing parts and identities - was found there and brought back and we should see more Hart family members restored and some fly. G-INFO's good for owner details, but not much chop for the histories. The Shuttleworth website's aircraft histories are mostly accurate now. Ray Rimmell's <i>W.W.I Survivors</i> (Aston) is probably the best book on the period, but isn't perfect and Ray took actual examples, not types, as his subject, frustratingly. Post 1918 machines are often briefly dismissed. And while I remember, the Aussie Boxkite replica project will be on show at the forthcoming RAAF Museum Pageant on Feb 28 (plug) details on the RAAF Museum's website. www.airforce.gov.au/RAAFMuseum/ Be there or be unairminded? Sorry Brett,
Bad semi academic pun coming up...

That (air)field is my field! Grone.

(I also think I've got all the guides, books and listings the Shuttleworth Collection have published as well as many years of talking to the crews.) The Savage Skywriting story's an interesting one - even wrote over New York with SE5as!

Not only is the Shuttleworth's Hind an ex-Afghan example, so are the Canadian Aviation Museum's and RAF Museum's examples, as well as other survivors, while the RAFM and Shuttleworth's one (originally) appeared in Afghan colours. (The RAF Museum's Hind is at Cosford - the Harts are at Hendon). A couple of years ago another cache of Hawker bits - frames, wing parts and identities - was found there and brought back and we should see more Hart family members restored and some fly.

G-INFO's good for owner details, but not much chop for the histories. The Shuttleworth website's aircraft histories are mostly accurate now. Ray Rimmell's W.W.I Survivors (Aston) is probably the best book on the period, but isn't perfect and Ray took actual examples, not types, as his subject, frustratingly. Post 1918 machines are often briefly dismissed.

And while I remember, the Aussie Boxkite replica project will be on show at the forthcoming RAAF Museum Pageant on Feb 28 (plug) details on the RAAF Museum's website.

http://www.airforce.gov.au/RAAFMuseum/

Be there or be unairminded?

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2010/02/18/shuttleworth-collection/comment-page-1/#comment-130530 Brett Holman Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:20:14 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=3551#comment-130530 Gack, I knew I was going to get something wrong in this post, and I did think that story about the S.E.5a was too good to be true. I even looked up G-EBIA on G-INFO but it doesn't have any information on its pre-civil origins. Of course it probably makes sense that frontline machines wouldn't show up as a war surplus -- who'd buy a used aeroplane when you could have a fresh one? So the Shuttleworth's Hind is from Afghanistan? That would make it part of <a href="http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/" rel="nofollow">the Afghan air menace</a> then. Looking forward to seeing that Boxkite! Gack, I knew I was going to get something wrong in this post, and I did think that story about the S.E.5a was too good to be true. I even looked up G-EBIA on G-INFO but it doesn't have any information on its pre-civil origins. Of course it probably makes sense that frontline machines wouldn't show up as a war surplus -- who'd buy a used aeroplane when you could have a fresh one?

So the Shuttleworth's Hind is from Afghanistan? That would make it part of the Afghan air menace then.

Looking forward to seeing that Boxkite!

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