On my third day in Cornwall I avoided the usual tourist traps entirely, because I was in search of my ancestors' home: a tiny little place called Tremayne, which is towards Land's End, in the hundred of Penwith. To get there I caught a train to Camborne, then a bus to Praze-an-Beeble (no, really!), and then walked along a winding country lane with no footpath and some very high hedgerows. Luckily I didn't get run over, as that would rather have spoiled what was a beautiful day.
This is the turn-off into Tremayne. There's no actual sign saying 'Tremayne': I don't think it's big enough to warrant one! (It doesn't show up in Google Maps, but it is on the Ordinance Survey's ones, along with Tremayne Farm, North Tremayne and Carn Tremayne.)
The main street. In fact the only street.
Some of Tremayne's buildings look like they could have been there when my mob left.
And I don't know why they did leave. I know they go back to at least 1732 there, or near there, when James Holman was born, my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather (I think that's the right number of greats!) His grandson, John Holman, emigrated with his wife, Millicent (nee Hodge), and their eight children to the new colony of South Australia in 1839. Six other children had died in Cornwall, which suggests a grinding poverty. Their passage was assisted, so they certainly had few means at their disposal.
John Holman's application for assisted passage listed him as a farmer (Tremayne, incidentally, means 'farm by stones' in Cornish). And farming is what he did for the rest of his life, first in Prospect Village, then in Willunga.
South Australia was itself only founded in 1836; so we were there pretty early. It attracted many Cornish emigrants, not only for the economic opportunities (later, especially due to copper strikes) but because of its freedom. Firstly, it was not a penal colony, so it was free of the convict stain. Secondly, it had no state religion, and indeed welcomed Nonconformists. Cornwall was a Methodist stronghold, but the Church of England still had legal and financial privileges which non-Anglicans would have found offensive: landowners had to pay tithes to the (Anglican) parish church, which is also where banns of marriage had to be read, and so on. I'm not actually sure whether the Holmans in Cornwall were Methodists, but at least one was a Methodist lay preacher in South Australia, and John Holman's second wife was buried in a Methodist cemetery. So they may well have been.
If they were Methodists, it looks like the nearest chapels were in Praze (though it depends on what denomination they were). But the parish church in nearby Crowan is where many Holmans from the district were baptised, married and buried. So from Tremayne I set off in search of Crowan.
There was a public footpath, which I immediately managed to lose and trespass my way through a field and a barbed wire fence. But I did find this surprisingly sturdy bridge. I wonder why a simple crossroads wouldn't do? Maybe it was for mine traffic.
This is the church at Crowan, dedicated to Saint Crewenna. It was built in the 15th century but restored extensively in 1872.
Saint Crewenna was an obscure 5th century missionary from Ireland, a companion of Saint Breaca, who herself was a disciple of Saint Brigid.
The church was locked, so I looked around the churchyard instead.
Except for it not being dark and wreathed with fog, it's just what you want from a churchyard: lots of old tombstones, some broken and tumbledown.
I didn't find any ancestors, but I did find some probable relatives.
Beneath
THIS STONE,
are deposited the mortal remains of
Jacob Holman
of
Tremayne in this parish
WHO WAS KILLED UNDERGROUND.
September 4, 1834 Aged 18 Years.
Oh! Fatal stroke that rent my heart
I little thought so soon to part,
But since tis so weep not for me
Hope in heaven to meet with thee.MARIA HOLMAN W[HO DIE]D
[...]
So Jacob was a miner (probably copper) who died at work. Maria could have been his sister. Either way it's unclear what relation they are to John and Millicent, despite living in the same tiny place, Tremayne, at the same time: Jacob died less than five years before they emigrated. I do know the names of John and Millicent's children, and there are no Jacobs or Marias: however there
IN LOVING MEMORY OF
JANE,
WIFE OF FRANCIS HOLMAN
Who Died
March 6th 1891.
AGED 67 YEARS.
ALSO OF FRANCIS, THEIR SON
Died April 5th 1869.
AGED 17 YEARS.
ALSO OF
FRANCIS HOLMAN.
HUSBAND OF THE ABOVE
WHO DIED MARCH 2ND 1909.
AGED 83 YEARS.
FOR ME TO LIVE IS CHRIST, AND TO DIE IS GAIN
Francis senior was a stonemason. At the time of the 1841 census he was living at Tremayne, with several siblings and his father, Jacob. Not the same Jacob as above, obviously, but the shared names and the Tremayne connection suggests that they're all part of the same bunch as me. (And John Holman's father, also named John, had a brother named James — Jacob?)
I'm going to stop there before my brain melts!
After that it was back to Truro, via Tremayne, Praze and Camborne. I wish I'd been a bit better prepared — if I had been, perhaps I would have known about the former Methodist chapel in Praze, or found the address of the Holmans (if not my Holmans) in Tremayne from the 1841 census. But it was still very evocative to see where some of my forebears came from. And I can always come back when I know more!
This post relates to my trip to England and Wales in September 2009.
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I used to have free access to Ancestry.com for more than 4 years via a back door they accidently left open (I didn't dare tell anyone, in case others blabbed it out on mailing lists and the like as they always do, so that Ancestry would find out and fix it) but a free promotion late last year saw them inadvertantly close it on me when the promotion was finished because the usual redirection when without a subscription suddenly kicked in for a change which it hadn't been doing. The free Ancestry Library Edition available from terminals at libraries doesn't include the Family Trees section unfortunately, therefore I'm stuffed for doing my usual tricks there. It was good while it lasted.
Out of choice I gave up my annual subscription to Genesreunited (I know, I'm mean, it's dirt cheap) after about 4 years there too. I can't message any more but I can still be contacted and search the indexes free. I made many breakthroughs there with more than 800 researchers contacted roughly 50% of whom had material of interest of which a generous proportion are actually related to me. Mind you I've got a genuine database of 40,000 on my computer represented by a skeleton database of past generations of about 4000 at Genesreunited. If you haven't joined before (I can't see a Brett with HOLMAN born at Crowan in his database) then I suggest you do because there are a number of researchers there with databases that include your people. When I was paying the cost for a full membership was about NZ$20 per annum, but registration is free and so is searching the indexes if you just want to have a look. Currently there 253 hits for HOLMAN born at Crowan from the year dot to 1917. 9 people have a John HOLMAN born 1795 at Crowan in their trees and the number gets larger if you add the ones a few years either side. Genesreunited is good for exploring branches you haven't got much on but most importantly it's great for contacting long lost relations attacking things from the point of view of say Simon or Eliza or Ann or William etc just as you are doing from John's end. You can't view someone else's database if they don't give permission, so it's a lot more private than Ancestry.com. They tend to be more serious researchers than those who upload trees to Ancestry which can often be tripe.
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/home/index
The 'search all trees' facility is what you want.
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/tree/index
Ooooooh, check this out
The same researcher who posted the information about Simon Holman IVEY at Findagrave.com has posted information there about James HOLMAN who married Susanna ATKINSON in which she says that many of Ann IVEY nee HOLMAN's children emigrated to Australia with your crowd after her death, so she obviously thinks that Simon et. al. went to South Australia first.
She also has a Phillip HOLMAN born 1790 died Australia but I am wondering if she is mixed up with Phillipa who married the senior Sampson BASTION.
Or has she truly has found a brother Phillip to your John which would be rather interesting to say the least.
She thinks that William died 1884.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=91268791
I sent an email to Glenda yesterday but there's been no reply yet.
I found the passenger list of the Sir Charles FORBES here
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1839SirCharlesForbes.htm
but I can't see any IVEY on it let alone Simon Holman IVEY.
Regarding the colonisation scheme and assisted passages – Edward Gibbon Wakefield the South Australia colonisation mastermind also helped establish colonies in New Zealand including Nelson where my DILLON ancestors arrived on 01 Feb 1842 on the ship FIFESHIRE which is recognised as the first settler ship to Nelson (although three ships had actually arrived beforehand to set things up for the settlers). My great grandfather Thomas Harford DILLON was born during the voyage on 21 Dec 1842 in the Indian Ocean near the islands of St Paul & Amsterdam. The captain was Harford ARNOLD.
The ship SIR CHARLES FORBES which you know so well brought settlers to Nelson a couple of months after the FIFESHIRE in May 1842.
Wakefield was also tied up with the Canterbury settlement several years later when my DILLON ancestors arrived at that settlement's port of Lytelton in 1851 on the ship CORNWALL, the 18th settler ship to that colony about a year after the so-called 'first four ships.' Thomas Harford DILLON and two younger brothers were baptised during the voyage of the CORNWALL. If you think it was a job and a half discovering that Thomas was born on the FIFESHIRE and then baptised on the CORNWALL…you'd be right.
Descendants of the First Four Ships to Canterbury can get a bit sniffy and precious about it sometimes. I once spoke to such a person regarding family history, and in answer to her query about when my ancestors got to Christchurch I said that my DILLONs had arrived in December 1851. The old biddy in a condescending way started going on about her lot's arrival on one of the first four ships and didn't stop. Eventually I shut her up by pointing out that my DILLONs actually arrived in new Zealand many years before hers!
What happened was that the nelson settlement took a long time to come right after a slow start due a lack of sufficient land at the beginning, absentee landlords and a brush with the Maoris in a land dispute (because of the lack of land) including the fearsome Te Rauparahau who had got hold of muskets and laid waste to enemy Maori tribes in the days of the traders and whalers prior to organised settlement by the Europeans. The DILLONs arrived 1842 at Nelson but by the end of the decade were back in England. By the 1851 census they were in the Blackfriars area of Southwark south of the Thames just before they had their second go at New Zealand to the new Canterbury settlement. They arrived at the Port of Lyttelton and settled in the new town of Christchurch. By the mid 1860s the DILLONs had all gone from Christchurch. The only reason we are here now is because my father after the war was unsettled and didn't want to take on the family farm at Opouri Valley which is at the top of the South Island. He stopped in Christchurch for a bit because lots of his old army comrades were there, met my mother, and that was that.
I've forgotten that Eliza HOLMAN the sister of John near Willunga had a son Simon.
Philippa HOLMAN who was baptised 1814 to John & Susannah at Crowan was probably buried 1816 at Crowan age 2 which leaves Philippa who married John PETERSON at South Australia in 1839 as probably the daughter of John at Willunga.
Simon HOLMAN was at Crenver in 1851 and 1861.
His likely brother William was at Crinver/Crenver in 1841 and 1851.
Their parents John & Susannah were at Crenver Common when their last child Philippa was born.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11826-152343-82?cc=1769414&wc=MMVH-J3M:n589216406
Crowan baptisms 1814
Born: 13 Jan
Whem baptised: March 29th
Child's Christian Name: Philippa
Parents: John & Susannah HOLMAN
Abode: Crenver Common
Quality, Trade or Profession: Miner
By whom the ceremony was performed: Thos TREVATHAN
The above baptism was entered in a new book on a printed page with a space for the abode which was duly entred . Prior to 1807 the sheets were fully handwritten and the abode doesn't appear more's the pity.
Two further PETERSON children:
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/births-marriages-deaths/births.html
South Australian Birth, Marriage & Death Directory
PETERSON Christian born 1840-02-28 at Pt Adelaide, father PETERSON John, mother HOLMAN Philippa
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/births-marriages-deaths/births.html
South Australian Birth, Marriage & Death Directory
PETERSON Elizabeth Jane born 1841-05-29 at Albert Town, father PETERSON John, mother HOLMAN Philippa
Have you seen these websites?
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/mining.php
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/mining1.php
http://www.cornish-mining.org.uk/
Crenver
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/crenver.php
Crowan & Wendron
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/releath.php
Cambourne & Crowan
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/mining4.php
Breage
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/mining3.php
The problem of Simon HOLMAN in the 1841 census age 15 being born before the marriage of William HOLMAN & Mary WALTERS in 1830 isn't a problem because instead he was the son of William HOLMAN & Ann THOMAS. William married Ann THOMAS in 1826, Simon was baptised 1827, Mary Ann was baptised 1828, Mary Ann was buried 1829, Ann was buried 1829 and William remarried to Mary WALTER in 1830. William and Mary had a number of children baptised at Crowan parish, then had three children baptised in the Methodist church, then for their last child reverted to Crowan parish for his baptism. A daughter Elizabeth Jane baptised 1840 may have been called Elizabeth in the 1841 census and Jane in the 1851 census. A son John baptised 1838 was buried 1840 and another son John was born 1842.
IGI
Marriage
groom's name: William HOLMAN
bride's name: Ann THOMAS
marriage date: 03 Apr 1826
marriage place: Crowan,Cornwall,England
indexing project (batch) number: M02226-2
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246799, 246800, 90243
IGI
name: Simon HOLMAN
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 04 Feb 1827
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Ann
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246798
Cornwall OPC
Baptism
Date: 01 Mar 1828
Parish: Crowan
Forename: Mary Anne
Surname HOLMAN
Father: William
Mother: Anne
Residence Crowan
Father's Rank Profession: miner
Cornwall OPC
Burial
Date: 02 Aug 1829
Parish : Crowan
Forename: Mary Ann
Surname: HOLMAN
Age: 2
Residence: Crowan
Cornwall OPC
Burial
Date: 23 Aug 1829
Parish: Crowan
Forename: Ann HOLMAN
Age: 24
Residence: Crowan
IGI
Marriage
groom's name: William HOLMAN
bride's name: Mary WALTERS
marriage date: 31 May 1830
marriage place: Crowan,Cornwall,England
indexing project (batch) number: M02226-2
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246799, 246800, 90243
IGI
Baptism
name: Mary Ann HOLMAN
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 29 Jan 1832
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246798
IGI
Baptism
name: Caroline HOLMAN
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 12 Oct 1834
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246798
IGI
Baptism
name: William HOLMAN
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 07 Aug 1836
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
IGI
Baptism
name: John HOLMAN
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 25 Dec 1838
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246798
The above John must have died young.
IGI
Baptism
name: Elizabeth Jane HOLMAN
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 02 Jul 1840
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246798
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11826-142666-69?cc=1769414&wc=MMVH-J3F:20616358
Crowan Burials 1840
John HOLMAN, Crowan, 20 Jul, 2.
06 Jun 1841 Census of England & Wales
Piece: HO107/141/6 Place: Penwith -Cornwall Enumeration District: 3
Civil Parish: Crowan Ecclesiastical Parish: –
Folio: 34 Page: 4
Address: Crinver
HOLMAN William M 35 Miner Cornwall
HOLMAN Mary F 35 Cornwall
HOLMAN Simon M 15 Cornwall
HOLMAN Mary F 10 Cornwall
HOLMAN Caroline F 07 Miner Cornwall
HOLMAN William M 05 Cornwall
HOLMAN Elizabeth F 01 Cornwall
Jane HOLMAN – Elizabeth Jane was baptised 1840, She could be Elizabeth in the 1841 census and Jane in the 1851 census. Can't find a baptism for a Jane.
IGI
Baptism
name: John HOLMAN
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 27 Mar 1842
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246798
IGI
Baptism
name: Martha HOLMAN
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 21 Aug 1843
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246798
Cornwall OPC
Baptism Circuit Crowan, Wesleyan-Methodist
Forename: James
Surname: HOLMAN
Sex son
Father Forename: William
Mother Forename: Mary
Residence: Crenver
Parish: Crowan
Date 22 Feb 1846
Age 2y 2m
Where Baptised Horse Downs Chapel
Cornwall OPC
Baptism Circuit: Crowan, Wesleyan-Methodist
Name: Grace Surname HOLMAN
Sex dau of
Father Forename: William
Mother Forename: Mary
Residence: Crinver
Parish: Crowan
Father: Rank Profession: N/R
Date: 01 Aug 1848
Age: 1 yr 9 mo this day
Where Baptised: Nancegollan Chapel, Crowan
Baptism
Cornwall OPC
Circuit: Crowan, Wesleyan-Methodist
Name: Maria Louisa HOLMAN
Sex: N/R
Father Forename: William
Mother Forename: Mary
Residence: Crinverth
Parish: Crowan
Father Rank Profession: N/R
Date:23 Oct 1849
Age: 20/11/1848
Where Baptised: Nancegollan Chapel, Crowan
IGI
Baptism
name: Thomas HOLMAN
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 22 May 1852
baptism/christening place: CROWAN,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: William HOLMAN
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C02226-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 246797, 246798
30 Mar 1851 Census of England & Wales
Piece: HO107/1913 Place: St Keverne -Cornwall Enumeration District: 1c
Civil Parish: Crowan Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 452 Page: 1 Schedule: 3
Address: Crenver
HOLMAN Wm Head M M 47 Agriculture And Copper Miner Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN M T A Wife M F 44 House Wife b. Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN M T Dau U F 19 At The Mine b. Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN Caroline Dau U F 16 At The Mine b. Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN Wm Son U M 14 At The Mine b. Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN Jane Dau U F 10 At The Mine b. Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN John Son U M 09 At The Mine b. Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN Martha Dau U F 07 b.Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN Jas Son U M 06 b. Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN Grace Dau F 04 b. Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN Maria L Dau F 02 b.Cornwall – Crowan
HOLMAN Thomas Son M 1m b. Cornwall – Crowan
Don't worry about the errors, it's so easy to do. I made one myself above, when I said that the Elizabeth Holman listed on the assisted passage register was actually Eliza. No, she was Elizabeth, so I owe the clerk who wrote that an apology!
Sure, but the point is that there are gaps in the coverage across Cornwall, not to mention gaps in the records themselves, transcription errors and the possible systematic problems I mentioned (eg the Stamp Act, the Methodist thing). It's not so hard to search the digitised images for a short period for one parish, but they could have been elsewhere in Cornwall, not just Wendron. Not finding somebody in the records doesn't prove much at this period. I'd prefer to infer from positive evidence than negative evidence.
Yes, that's what we have.
The first daughter was definitely Eliza, not Elizabeth. She's easy to track because of her Gibraltar birth (though in the 1881 census her birthplace is given as Crowan for some reason). The 1851 census has her as 'Eliz.a' (with the a as superscript) , which can just be distinguished from a 'Eliz.h' further up the same page, so I think that's pretty clear. In later censuses she is always just Eliza.
Yes, we have this other Simon Holman as Simon Vivian Holman's nephew; though not his marriage or death dates.
Yes, Crinver or Crenver pops up a few times in our tree. Note that the 1844 (Cotter) director I cite above has a John Holman farming at 'Section 255, Cranver'. Cranver (or Crinver or Crenver) doesn't appear in Trove Newspapers (apart from a bad OCR) or in Google as a South Australian placename, so it's presumably a farm or house name, and another piece of circumstantial evidence linking John Holman of Willunga to the family of John Holman and Susannah George, as they (and perhaps he himself at some point) lived at Crenver Common in 1814 when Phillippa was born (before moving to Tremayne by 1832, the name of another farm or house name associated with a Holman at Willunga). It was a tiny hamlet, looks like only four households in 1841 (one Holman, another Ivey), down to one in 1851 (Holman). So I think this is unlikely to be a coincidence.
Yes, we have Simon Holman Ivey as the son of John Ivey and Ann Holman and hence the grandson of John Holman and Susannah George. We don't know when he arrived in Australia, but he didn't come with John Holman and Millicent Hodge's family as he is in the 1841 (UK) census living with his father and siblings, by which time they were already in South Australia. The earliest trace we have of him after that is a possible arrival in San Francisco in 1852 but by 1854 he was in Australia (where he seems to have fathered a child out of wedlock and later married another woman). I don't think he could have come with William Holman's family (if they did come out here) either, as he was already in South Australia by then (see below).
We can find some of them in Cornwall after 1851, but not all. Two of the children died in the late 1850s, so before the next census. In 1861 the eldest daughter, Mary Ann Holman, lived with her husband, Richard Scaddan, and three of her siblings. Another daughter had married by 1861, but after that we have nothing, so maybe they emigrated. So it's possible that William Holman and Ann Walters emigrated c. 1860 with their three youngest children, while the three eldest children not yet of marriageable age stayed behind with their eldest sister, who was now married and settled. But a couple of the emigres may have come back to Cornwall (as sometimes happened) as we have them back there later in the century (including William Holman himself, dying in 1879 in the Redruth district; but that's only from the BMD index so it could be wrong).
The child out of wedlock I mentioned before was born in 1854 (Elizabeth Jane Ivey, to Harriet Lampshire) but otherwise his first child seems to have arrived in 1868 (Mary Ivey, though we only have that from the 1880 US census).
Yes, we have the Phillippa (two ls in the baptism record) Holman who was the daughter of John Holman and Susannah George dying in 1816. The one who died in 1856 was, as you suggest, the daughter of John Holman and Millicent Hodge (and did indeed marry John Peterson).
Yes, that's what we have too.
Yes, in July 1840.
Thanks for the tip about Genes Reunited. As I said above, I'm not the one doing the research, that's my mother; I'll pass it on to her.
So Elizth in the census is definitely Eliza. Phew!
Mary Ann HOLMAN & Richard SCADDEN:
I've seen the name Scadden in a database at Worldconnect as the middle name of Amelia Scadden RISDEN the 2nd wife of Simon HOLMAN.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=lierbag&id=I1283
Yes, we've got her in the tree too (though we didn't have her parents, which that site does). We're not sure if or how she is related to the other Scaddans we have — for one thing her name is spelt differently (hers is Scadden, theirs is Scaddan, though it's obviously essentially the same name). And she was born in Helston whereas Richard Scaddan was born in Gwinear, which is the other side of Cornwall. But a connection may well turn up.
Re; James Holman, born 1762 to J. Holman and Rachel Medlyn in Crowan. It has been 'posted" on some sites, that this James Holman was the one that married Mary Rodda in Crowan on June 09,1795. Do you have or do you know anyone that might have any documentary type proof (other than merely a name on a document)that this WAS THE James Holman that married Mary Rodda. I am looking for a birth date, age, parents name, etc. associated with the marriage license, etc.
I believe that I am one of the "other" Holman family members, in Crowan, from the 1650 era from John(1820);John(1798);John(1745); Jacob(1708); Alexander(1680s; Stephen(1650s); etc. I believe that it was John's son, James, born in 1772, that married Mary Rodda. I have discussed this,in November, with Peter Dillon. I have also written to you but I did not receive a retrn resposne.
Thank You
William J. Holman
That could be the case, actually. No, I don't think we can definitively tie the James Holman who married Mary Rodda to the James Holman born to John Holman and Rachel Medlyn. Marriage records of this period just don't have the level of detail to do that, as they didn't record the parents or even the age of the people getting married. The only clues besides the name are the occupations and maybe the names of the witnesses. You can see the record of the marriage banns here and of the marriage itself here. There's not much help here (occupation miner and spinster, witnesses Henry Ogder — who is the witness for many Crowan records from this time and so probably was no relation to the couple — and Matthew Bennaths (? Bennetts) who doesn't appear in our tree). So I can't really help one way or the other, I'm afraid.
Incidentally, we're starting to wonder ourselves if the John Holman/Rachel Medlyn connection is a red herring, because we can't even find much circumstantial evidence for it. If we disregard them it might make it easier to connect our Holmans (i.e. the family of the John Holman who emigrated to South Australia) to your 'other' Holmans. They both lived in Tremayne which was and is a tiny hamlet, in fact I think in the 1841 census the two Holman families made up more than half the population, and in 1832 three of its five voters (two John Holmans and Jacob Holman). It seems very unlikely that they weren't related somehow, though it is of course still possible.
Hello brett
I am a direct descendant of the "other" Holman family from Crowan, Cornwall; from the 1650's onward. I and other descendants, have been researching "our" Holman lines since the 1980s. The James Holman – Rachel Medlyn family are totally distinct from my Holman line. Their son John (1760) did marry Susannah George, in Crowan in 1794. Their son James (1762) per best available information, DID NOT marry Mary Rodda, in Crowan, in 1795.
Since being contacted by Peter Dillon in early November, 2012, we have re-engaged our inquiry concerning the marriage of James Holman, born in 1772 to John Holman and Ann Rodda. He was the spouse of Mary Rodda (born about 1775 era), on June 9, 1795. Jmaes Holman and Mary Rodda, factually had 11 children. Their child, Ann Holman, born in 1813, died in 1817. Another child was born in 1818; and she also was named as Ann Holman. The first child born to James Holman and Mary Rodda was John Holman. I am descended from him. The second son was James Holman, born in 1798. That James married Grace Eustis in 1821. Grace Eustis was also a descendant of the Rodda families.
Mary Rodda was a daughter of John Rodda (born in 1744, Crowan)and probably a Grace John(s). John and Grace Rodda also had a son named Matthew, born in 1773. Grace Rodda died in 1777. I have very recently obtained the 1809 Will of John Rodda and the 1851 Will of Matthew Rodda. John Rodda, in his Will, specifically names "my daughter Mary, wife of James Holman." John also names his son Matthew and John's second wife Jenifer "Jenny" Simons Rodda (married in 1788. In 1809, John, Matthew and Jenny Rodda were residing at Clowance Wood, Crowan. Per John's Will, after his death, Matthew could remain at that residence with Jenny. Jenifer Rodda died in about 1831. In about 1832, Matthew Rodda married Eleanor Eustis. They resided at the Clowance Wood home.
In the 1841 British Census, Matthew and Eleanor are residing at Clowance Wood. James Holman (listed as 69 yrs. old) and Mary, his wife (listed as 66 yrs. old) are residing at Horse Downs, Crowan; a short distance from Clowance Wood. The age for James Holman would confirm a birth in 1772. James Holman died in 1846.
In the 1851 British census, Mary Holman, "widow, 76 yrs. old, was residing at #48 Horse Downs, Crowan." Matthew and Eleanor Rodda were now also residing at Horse Downs, Crowan. Matthew Rodda died in 1851 and Mary "Rodda" Holman died in 1852.
In his Will, Matthew Rodda specifically named his spouse Eleanor and also "his sister Mary (Rodda)," wife of James Holman. Also, in his Will, Matthew Rodda specifically advised that, if anything happened to Eleanor Rodda and/or Mary Holman, his property should be equally divided between Mary Holman's sons John and Matthew Holman.
It can also be noted that John Rodda, born in 1744, was the brother of Ann Rodda, born in 1746. Ann Rodda married John Holman in 1769 era. They were the parents of James Holman, born 1772, that married Mary Rodda. John Rodda and Ann Rodda's parents were Matthew Rodda and Mary Davey.
To date, there is very little available information on a James Holman, born in 1762 to James Holman and Rachel Medlyn. Other than sinilarities in their names, I have not seen any other information that would presently support a conclusion that Jmaes Holman, born in 1762, married Mary Rodda.
I do have additional information on the family of James Holman and Rachel Medlyn. I also have substantial information on the family of John Holman and Ann Rodda; and their descendants. John Holman, the son of Mary Rodda and James Holman, was born in 1795 era and married Elizabeth Pollard, in Gwinear, in 1820. In the latter 1840s, John and Elizabeth Holman, and some of their children, emigrated to Cobb-Linden towns, Iowa County, Wisconsin, USA. A large area for Cornish emigrants at that time.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me by email at Williamjholmansr@aol.com
Thanks, William. That's a lot to absorb — as you know genealogy can be hard to wrap your mind around! I'll pass it on my mother. It's encouraging that you've found some useful information from wills — that's an avenue we haven't explored yet. Did you get those from the Cornwall Record Office?
Brett
Yes, I received the copies of the Wills from the Cornwall Record Office on January 7, 2013, via mail..
Brett
Re: John Holman married to Susannah George,1794, Crowan, Cornwall. We had previously "thought" that the John Holman that married Susannah George was born in 1760 and was the son of James Holman and Rachel Medlyn. A researcher in England, that had previously been of assistance to me in the matter involving James Holman, born 1772. and Mary Rodda, outlined in detailed previous messages to you, has very recently notidfied me that there is an error in the belief that John Holman, born 1760, son of James Holman and Rachel Medlyn, was the spouse of Susannah George. That is an error. The correct spouse of Susannah George was John Holman, born in 1770, the son of John Holman and Ann Rodda. In turn, that John was the brother of the James Holman, born 1772, that marri3ed Mary Rodda in 1795 Crowan.
The John Holman, born 1795 era, that married Millicent Hodge was the son of John Holman, born 1770, and Susannah George. John, Millicent, and their surviving children, immigrated to Australia during the late 1830s. I believe that your mom may trace her ancestry to that line. I and other USA Holman's, trace their ancestry to James Holman, Mary Rodda, John Holman and Ann Rodda; back to 1740s Crowan families.
If, as believed, your mom traces her ancestry to John Holman, Millicent Hodge, John Holman and Susannah George, and now to John Holman and Ann Rodda, we would all be now directly related to identical ancestors. My cousin, Sandy Kent, advises that she is in communication with your mom and that your mom has made the above changes/corrections to her genealogical lines.
Additional: The John Holman, born in 1760 to James Holman and Rachel Medlyn, is believed to have married Mary Roberts, on Nov. 15, 1784, in Wendron, Cornwall. They had nine children : James, John, William, Stephen, William (#2), Mary, Rachel, Grace, Jenifer; between 1785 and 1800.
Thank you for the update, William. I haven't spoken to my mother about family history recently but I see she has made this change on Ancestry, and she's not easy to convince. So James Holman and Rachel Medlyn are out and John Holman and Ann Rodda are in! This does at least solve of the mystery of half of tiny Tremayne being from two unrelated Holman families, i.e. because they actually weren't unrelated. It also looks like we now can trace these branches a century farther back, into the late 17th century (e.g. Alexander Holman, b. 1681 at Gwinear).
You're correct, I (not my mother, she's not a Holman by birth, but a McCormick and a Platt, so ultimately Irish) trace back through John Holman and Millicent Hodge; they're my 4th-great-grandparents. John Holman and Susannah George are my 5th-great-grandparents. They emigrated to South Australia in 1839, only a couple of years after the colony was founded.
Brett
There is now a re-visiting going along concerning the "actual parents" of the John Holman that married Ann Rodda, the parents of John & James. So, the family history back from that John, including Jacab, Alexander, Stephen etc (back into 1600s) are now on hold. The John Holman and Ann Rodda forward are believed to be correct. However, as noted, we are re-evaluating the parents of John Holman; that was earlier listed as born in 1745. As that info becomes more clearer, we will let you know.