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	<title>Comments on: On being a snob</title>
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	<description>Airpower and British society, 1908-1941</description>
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		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-95143</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-95143</guid>
		<description>It was only one person and ironically he was saying a similar thing but felt offended when I said he should have gone further. It&#039;s usually a safe and friendly place as long as you stay away from threads that mention Haig and/or cavalry in the title. A few people there do have a very naive faith in facts and common sense, and a few are unable to take any criticism or difference of opinion, but most members are nice and helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was only one person and ironically he was saying a similar thing but felt offended when I said he should have gone further. It's usually a safe and friendly place as long as you stay away from threads that mention Haig and/or cavalry in the title. A few people there do have a very naive faith in facts and common sense, and a few are unable to take any criticism or difference of opinion, but most members are nice and helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-95106</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-95106</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;This isn’t just an esoteric history problem. Knowing how to evaluate and criticise things is a useful skill when dealing with politicians and the media.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Very true.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m a lot less enthusiastic about amateurs since I got flamed at the Great War Forum for insisting that recording references to your sources is not optional!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I find that a bit surprising, since as I recall there are a lot of genealogists on there, and the value of recording sources should be pretty apparent to them, whether it&#039;s from your own notes or trying to incorporate somebody else&#039;s research. Past a few generations back, the records are just too patchy to take dates on faith!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>This isn’t just an esoteric history problem. Knowing how to evaluate and criticise things is a useful skill when dealing with politicians and the media.</p></blockquote>
<p>Very true.</p>
<blockquote><p>I’m a lot less enthusiastic about amateurs since I got flamed at the Great War Forum for insisting that recording references to your sources is not optional!</p></blockquote>
<p>I find that a bit surprising, since as I recall there are a lot of genealogists on there, and the value of recording sources should be pretty apparent to them, whether it's from your own notes or trying to incorporate somebody else's research. Past a few generations back, the records are just too patchy to take dates on faith!</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-95030</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 12:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-95030</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a lot less enthusiastic about amateurs since I got flamed at the Great War Forum for insisting that recording references to your sources is not optional!

I don&#039;t think pushing for higher standards is elitist as long as it applies to everyone - an elite is only an elite if it&#039;s better than some other group.

I also think readers need to take more responsibility in this area. Authors and publishers will give their target audience what it wants. If more readers demanded footnotes, there&#039;d be more footnotes. Unfortunately too many people are prepared to believe anything they read just because it&#039;s in a book so it must be true. This isn&#039;t just an esoteric history problem. Knowing how to evaluate and criticise things is a useful skill when dealing with politicians and the media.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm a lot less enthusiastic about amateurs since I got flamed at the Great War Forum for insisting that recording references to your sources is not optional!</p>
<p>I don't think pushing for higher standards is elitist as long as it applies to everyone - an elite is only an elite if it's better than some other group.</p>
<p>I also think readers need to take more responsibility in this area. Authors and publishers will give their target audience what it wants. If more readers demanded footnotes, there'd be more footnotes. Unfortunately too many people are prepared to believe anything they read just because it's in a book so it must be true. This isn't just an esoteric history problem. Knowing how to evaluate and criticise things is a useful skill when dealing with politicians and the media.</p>
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		<title>By: Erik Lund</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-94718</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik Lund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-94718</guid>
		<description>In defence of rivet-counting, if Gavin Menzies had only counted more rivets, he&#039;d.....
Well, he would have made less money, so what&#039;s the point of that? There&#039;s got to be someone to hang out with Erich von Daniken at wherever gormless rich people hang out</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In defence of rivet-counting, if Gavin Menzies had only counted more rivets, he'd.....<br />
Well, he would have made less money, so what's the point of that? There's got to be someone to hang out with Erich von Daniken at wherever gormless rich people hang out</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-94703</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-94703</guid>
		<description>JDK:

Isn&#039;t the latest one &lt;em&gt;2008: The Year Gavin Menzies Discovered How to Write a Lucrative Sequel&lt;/em&gt;?

I think that&#039;s a good point about snobbery vs. elitism. There are some things that we &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; be elitist about, and this is one of them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JDK:</p>
<p>Isn't the latest one <em>2008: The Year Gavin Menzies Discovered How to Write a Lucrative Sequel</em>?</p>
<p>I think that's a good point about snobbery vs. elitism. There are some things that we <em>should</em> be elitist about, and this is one of them!</p>
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		<title>By: JDK</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-94557</link>
		<dc:creator>JDK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-94557</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately I received &lt;i&gt;1421 - The Year that China Discovered the World/America/Mars&lt;/i&gt; (depending on edition) for Christmas which shows the dangers of someone working outside the academic discipline and the damage they can do to real history in the pursuit of a rolling bestseller.  There&#039;s no sanction for an author like that (but there is for academics) although the publisher can be sued under the trade descriptions act for selling &#039;fiction&#039; as &#039;history&#039;.

As a professional aviation writer, I come at the inter war aviation story from different direction to Brett (we are both rivet-free, I trust) to some mutual benefit I find (and hope).  Generally I have greater freedom to choose and develop a narrative and less obligation to provide citations for it - I could if I had to, but that&#039;s no more part of the job than choosing attention-grabbing cover-designs is for a thesis.  

We should both be aware of what we leave out, the exceptions and caveats to our sagas etc.  Editing articles and books, I will challenge our authors to substantiate their claims - with sometimes interesting results.  The principle guidelines are academic disciplines and methods, even though we are not academic publishers (we prefer to earn &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; money).

As to the charge of &#039;snobbery&#039;, that&#039;s a classic case of using a prejudicial term for implied insult.  The issue is actually being an elitist - a charge I&#039;d gladly accept.  I&#039;m no snob, as that&#039;s pretty weak on merit-selection of peers or interests, while being an elitist in many fields makes sense.  &lt;i&gt;My&lt;/i&gt; time&#039;s to short to waste on reading 500+ pages of 1421 bilge, so I&#039;m certainly an &#039;elitist&#039; reader.  Not a snob, though, because it&#039;s got lots of doorstop and anti-academic snob points...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately I received <i>1421 - The Year that China Discovered the World/America/Mars</i> (depending on edition) for Christmas which shows the dangers of someone working outside the academic discipline and the damage they can do to real history in the pursuit of a rolling bestseller.  There's no sanction for an author like that (but there is for academics) although the publisher can be sued under the trade descriptions act for selling 'fiction' as 'history'.</p>
<p>As a professional aviation writer, I come at the inter war aviation story from different direction to Brett (we are both rivet-free, I trust) to some mutual benefit I find (and hope).  Generally I have greater freedom to choose and develop a narrative and less obligation to provide citations for it - I could if I had to, but that's no more part of the job than choosing attention-grabbing cover-designs is for a thesis.  </p>
<p>We should both be aware of what we leave out, the exceptions and caveats to our sagas etc.  Editing articles and books, I will challenge our authors to substantiate their claims - with sometimes interesting results.  The principle guidelines are academic disciplines and methods, even though we are not academic publishers (we prefer to earn <i>some</i> money).</p>
<p>As to the charge of 'snobbery', that's a classic case of using a prejudicial term for implied insult.  The issue is actually being an elitist - a charge I'd gladly accept.  I'm no snob, as that's pretty weak on merit-selection of peers or interests, while being an elitist in many fields makes sense.  <i>My</i> time's to short to waste on reading 500+ pages of 1421 bilge, so I'm certainly an 'elitist' reader.  Not a snob, though, because it's got lots of doorstop and anti-academic snob points...</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-94428</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-94428</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s hope it&#039;s possible to write in an academically respectable, popularly accessible way that tries to get readers to think about some of the broader technological/social/economic context without getting too bogged down in rivet counting, or making so many mistakes that the experts (academic or otherwise) tear you apart. Otherwise I have totally been wasting my time for the last three years. 
As Erik says, Adam Tooze&#039;s book is a model of such an approach. 

I&#039;m not sure I totally agree with kyt&#039;s argument that it is enthusiasts, rather than academics, who best write the people into histories of war. Take my colleague Catherine Merridale&#039;s fantastic Ivan&#039;s War, for example: an excellent, human centred account of the Red Army in the Second World War, written by an academic. The problem with many non-academic texts in this field is that personal histories - like any source - can be highly problematic, and that they are not always treated with the rigour they deserve in a market where publication is relatively easy and peer-reviewing non-existent. 
In the end, there is good history and bad history. We pretty much all know the difference when we read it. Both academics and enthusiasts write both sorts.

Speaking of the good sort, I will make an advance plug here for Charles Kirke&#039;s Red Coat to Green Machine - a sociological study of the British army from the eighteenth to the twentieth century, coming out in the near future in Continuum&#039;s Birmingham War Studies series. It does the human without any loss of academic rigour or personal understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let's hope it's possible to write in an academically respectable, popularly accessible way that tries to get readers to think about some of the broader technological/social/economic context without getting too bogged down in rivet counting, or making so many mistakes that the experts (academic or otherwise) tear you apart. Otherwise I have totally been wasting my time for the last three years.<br />
As Erik says, Adam Tooze's book is a model of such an approach. </p>
<p>I'm not sure I totally agree with kyt's argument that it is enthusiasts, rather than academics, who best write the people into histories of war. Take my colleague Catherine Merridale's fantastic Ivan's War, for example: an excellent, human centred account of the Red Army in the Second World War, written by an academic. The problem with many non-academic texts in this field is that personal histories - like any source - can be highly problematic, and that they are not always treated with the rigour they deserve in a market where publication is relatively easy and peer-reviewing non-existent.<br />
In the end, there is good history and bad history. We pretty much all know the difference when we read it. Both academics and enthusiasts write both sorts.</p>
<p>Speaking of the good sort, I will make an advance plug here for Charles Kirke's Red Coat to Green Machine - a sociological study of the British army from the eighteenth to the twentieth century, coming out in the near future in Continuum's Birmingham War Studies series. It does the human without any loss of academic rigour or personal understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Erik Lund</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-94425</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik Lund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-94425</guid>
		<description>Everyone involved in the field should read Colonel Dening, (d. June 12 1940), if only to put context to Liddell Hart and especially Fuller&#039;s pose as the only brains in the prewar Army. Dening essentially rips Hart a new one in _Armies, Not Air Forces_, and is very illuminating in other ways, too.
As for oral histories..... Well, I see yet another pilot memoir, and for a novelty, Guardsmen, tankers, even some of the Bletchley Park office staff. Finally an artillery officer puts pen to paper and changes our whole picture of the war in Western Europe. 
Now, could I please have a memoir by a Port Reconstruction Diver, a 1930 RAF Halton graduate, or the story of a Divisional Engineer Park? No? Well, I grant that it&#039;s probably too late, but there&#039;s also the issue of finding a publisher. Hardy had to bring out _Minesweeper&#039;s Victory_ on a vanity press. On the one hand, it shows. On the other, it is a very precious book, precisely because the &quot;boring&quot; parts of the war didn&#039;t get this treatment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone involved in the field should read Colonel Dening, (d. June 12 1940), if only to put context to Liddell Hart and especially Fuller's pose as the only brains in the prewar Army. Dening essentially rips Hart a new one in _Armies, Not Air Forces_, and is very illuminating in other ways, too.<br />
As for oral histories..... Well, I see yet another pilot memoir, and for a novelty, Guardsmen, tankers, even some of the Bletchley Park office staff. Finally an artillery officer puts pen to paper and changes our whole picture of the war in Western Europe.<br />
Now, could I please have a memoir by a Port Reconstruction Diver, a 1930 RAF Halton graduate, or the story of a Divisional Engineer Park? No? Well, I grant that it's probably too late, but there's also the issue of finding a publisher. Hardy had to bring out _Minesweeper's Victory_ on a vanity press. On the one hand, it shows. On the other, it is a very precious book, precisely because the "boring" parts of the war didn't get this treatment.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-94416</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-94416</guid>
		<description>Oh, and Erik, I haven&#039;t come across &lt;em&gt;Armies, not air forces, decide wars&lt;/em&gt; but maybe I should track it down. I don&#039;t read enough airpower scepticism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and Erik, I haven't come across <em>Armies, not air forces, decide wars</em> but maybe I should track it down. I don't read enough airpower scepticism.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/12/20/on-being-a-snob/comment-page-1/#comment-94414</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=1102#comment-94414</guid>
		<description>Thanks for everybody&#039;s comments -- seems like we are mostly on the same page (heh) over here. It&#039;s about the methodology and the reproducibility of the results, not the subject matter or the author.

Note that kyt (who has a PhD in sociology and is familiar with academia) has posted a response to my post and the comments, &lt;a href=&quot;http://ww2chat.com/forums/general-topics/4059-books.html#post24383&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. He clarifies his objection: it&#039;s that academics are mostly writing for other academics, both by intention and in practice (true enough, that&#039;s one reason why I blog) and that he&#039;s not interested in &#039;rivet counting&#039; but rather:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
My interest is in the human aspects of the war. In this area I again reiterate my point that books written by non-academics are far superior to those written by academics. Academic historians have almost all completelky failed to contribute to this area in any form that I would find interesting and informative, Those written by sociologists and psychologists take a macro level approach snd try to then extrapolate some sort of meaning on war experiences. Yes, useful to a point.

But the enthusiasts go out and actually talk to the people who were there, the families, the comrades etc They don&#039;t just rely on the original documents. They are the ones who, more often than not, allow the voices to come through.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
So he likes oral history (which, btw, academic historians do also). That&#039;s fine, but it&#039;s hardly an unproblematic window into the past as he seems to imply. And it can only illuminate some aspects of history, and by definition, only those within living memory. (How many oral histories of the Italian Renaissance are there? My starting point is 1908, I&#039;m not going to find too many people who can remember that year.) If that&#039;s what interests kyt then again, that&#039;s fine, but all it comes down to in the end is that it&#039;s his preference. One might even say it&#039;s snobbery ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for everybody's comments -- seems like we are mostly on the same page (heh) over here. It's about the methodology and the reproducibility of the results, not the subject matter or the author.</p>
<p>Note that kyt (who has a PhD in sociology and is familiar with academia) has posted a response to my post and the comments, <a href="http://ww2chat.com/forums/general-topics/4059-books.html#post24383" rel="nofollow">here</a>. He clarifies his objection: it's that academics are mostly writing for other academics, both by intention and in practice (true enough, that's one reason why I blog) and that he's not interested in 'rivet counting' but rather:</p>
<blockquote><p>
My interest is in the human aspects of the war. In this area I again reiterate my point that books written by non-academics are far superior to those written by academics. Academic historians have almost all completelky failed to contribute to this area in any form that I would find interesting and informative, Those written by sociologists and psychologists take a macro level approach snd try to then extrapolate some sort of meaning on war experiences. Yes, useful to a point.</p>
<p>But the enthusiasts go out and actually talk to the people who were there, the families, the comrades etc They don't just rely on the original documents. They are the ones who, more often than not, allow the voices to come through.
</p></blockquote>
<p>So he likes oral history (which, btw, academic historians do also). That's fine, but it's hardly an unproblematic window into the past as he seems to imply. And it can only illuminate some aspects of history, and by definition, only those within living memory. (How many oral histories of the Italian Renaissance are there? My starting point is 1908, I'm not going to find too many people who can remember that year.) If that's what interests kyt then again, that's fine, but all it comes down to in the end is that it's his preference. One might even say it's snobbery ...</p>
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