Comments on: Post-blogging the Sudeten crisis: thoughts and conclusions http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/ Airpower and British society, 1908-1941 Sat, 20 Mar 2010 15:05:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87618 Brett Holman Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:37:22 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87618 Thanks, now I've got your meaning! I agree: I wrote something along these lines <a href="http://airminded.org/2008/05/05/the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/" rel="nofollow">a while back</a>, actually, the upshot being that claiming that the next war will end civilisation is a pretty good argument for peace at any price. Thanks, now I’ve got your meaning! I agree: I wrote something along these lines a while back, actually, the upshot being that claiming that the next war will end civilisation is a pretty good argument for peace at any price.

]]> By: Erik Lund http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87528 Erik Lund Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:42:26 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87528 By the way, brain cramp over, I do know Christopher Hitchens is not Alexander Cockburn. Now, the crisis.... I'm just thinking about the way that media works. It feels around a complex event, finds a story with resonance, and goes for it. The knock out blow is the story of the Sudeten Crisis. Why? Because what people want to hear is that war would be immediate and terrible. Giving in to Germany on the Sudetenland seemed cowardly and a betrayal of the Czechs. I find it interesting that little is made of the Czechs' rather disingenuous behaviour in getting their hands on, for example, Teschen in the first place. There's little or no blaming the victim going on here. So the media here is an echo chamber in which Britons persuade themselves that they're doing a questionable thing for good reasons By the way, brain cramp over, I do know Christopher Hitchens is not Alexander Cockburn.
Now, the crisis…. I’m just thinking about the way that media works. It feels around a complex event, finds a story with resonance, and goes for it. The knock out blow is the story of the Sudeten Crisis. Why? Because what people want to hear is that war would be immediate and terrible. Giving in to Germany on the Sudetenland seemed cowardly and a betrayal of the Czechs. I find it interesting that little is made of the Czechs’ rather disingenuous behaviour in getting their hands on, for example, Teschen in the first place. There’s little or no blaming the victim going on here.
So the media here is an echo chamber in which Britons persuade themselves that they’re doing a questionable thing for good reasons

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87525 Brett Holman Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:24:37 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87525 Well, I wouldn't say that it's not about airpower -- it's just not about British airpower. All the attention paid to ARP shows that German airpower was deemed very important :) So that means that visible signs of an increase in British airpower could turn this around. Public assent for peace ... hmmm. Can you explain further? I wouldn't have thought they needed much convincing, other than, as you say, some on the left. Well, I wouldn’t say that it’s not about airpower — it’s just not about British airpower. All the attention paid to ARP shows that German airpower was deemed very important :) So that means that visible signs of an increase in British airpower could turn this around.

Public assent for peace … hmmm. Can you explain further? I wouldn’t have thought they needed much convincing, other than, as you say, some on the left.

]]> By: Erik Lund http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87493 Erik Lund Tue, 14 Oct 2008 04:54:14 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87493 I've said this before, but I still agree that this was a very useful exercise. When I have sketched something like it, it is with the vague notion that British public opinion ended 1938 very pessimistic about the air balance of power, and that the flood of favourable technological aviation news beginning in December, 1938 began to move public opinion towards consensus for war. Now I am rethinking this, or at least the role that the "knock out blow" funk of September plays in my scenario. This isn't about air power at all, Brett says. The RAF is invisible. So I'm thinking that what it is about is securing public assent for peace. A world war over the Sudeten would be a bad thing even if the bombers did not get through. It is not unknown for progressive circles to push war with a certain reckless enthusiasm (see 1859 or Alexander Cockburn). Or am I pointing the finger in altogether too partisan a way? I’ve said this before, but I still agree that this was a very useful exercise. When I have sketched something like it, it is with the vague notion that British public opinion ended 1938 very pessimistic about the air balance of power, and that the flood of favourable technological aviation news beginning in December, 1938 began to move public opinion towards consensus for war.
Now I am rethinking this, or at least the role that the “knock out blow” funk of September plays in my scenario. This isn’t about air power at all, Brett says. The RAF is invisible.
So I’m thinking that what it is about is securing public assent for peace. A world war over the Sudeten would be a bad thing even if the bombers did not get through. It is not unknown for progressive circles to push war with a certain reckless enthusiasm (see 1859 or Alexander Cockburn). Or am I pointing the finger in altogether too partisan a way?

]]> By: ErrolC http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87460 ErrolC Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:18:06 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87460 Well done Brett http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/11482 Case Green: Czechoslovakia 1938, 1992 CZ got points for moving factories off-board to the East (Slovakia). The one game I played (at the uni gaming club) went the max number of turns, letting me scrape a win. Well done Brett
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/11482
Case Green: Czechoslovakia 1938, 1992

CZ got points for moving factories off-board to the East (Slovakia). The one game I played (at the uni gaming club) went the max number of turns, letting me scrape a win.

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87437 Brett Holman Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:02:17 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87437 Alan: Yes, indeed they did! You're right that for the most part, programming was mostly light and fluffy. But what sounds like the BBC's first TV current affairs show premiered during the crisis: <em>News Map</em> (hosted by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._F._Horrabin" rel="nofollow">Frank Horrabin</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Bartlett" rel="nofollow">Vernon Bartlett</a>, both socialists, interestingly enough). The first episode (on 21 September) was criticised in <em>The Listener</em> for too obviously having been scripted days in advance, so it was out-of-date by the time it aired. An even more impressive first came on 15 September, when Chamberlain's departure from Heston was broadcast on TV, I presume live. It wasn't the first live broadcast of a newsworthy event on the BBC, that honour goes to the Coronation -- but they had months to plan that whereas here they would have had less than a day's notice. I've just come across this brilliant resource, <a href="http://uktvschedules.editthis.info/wiki/Main_Page" rel="nofollow">Uktvschedules</a>, which shows that Gaumont-British and Movietone newsreels were also shown, and there was a late-night news programme just before the close (see e.g. the schedules for <a href="http://uktvschedules.editthis.info/uktvschedules/15_September_1938" rel="nofollow">15 September</a> and <a href="http://uktvschedules.editthis.info/uktvschedules/21_September_1938" rel="nofollow">21 September</a>). I'd love to know more about the content of <em>News Map</em> and the news programme especially! ErrolC: I think I remember that, from <em>Strategy and Tactics</em>? <em>Case Green</em> maybe> At least, I remember drooling over the idea, don't think I ever saw it. Ricardo: Thanks! That's brilliant! Alan:

Yes, indeed they did! You’re right that for the most part, programming was mostly light and fluffy. But what sounds like the BBC’s first TV current affairs show premiered during the crisis: News Map (hosted by Frank Horrabin and Vernon Bartlett, both socialists, interestingly enough). The first episode (on 21 September) was criticised in The Listener for too obviously having been scripted days in advance, so it was out-of-date by the time it aired. An even more impressive first came on 15 September, when Chamberlain’s departure from Heston was broadcast on TV, I presume live. It wasn’t the first live broadcast of a newsworthy event on the BBC, that honour goes to the Coronation — but they had months to plan that whereas here they would have had less than a day’s notice. I’ve just come across this brilliant resource, Uktvschedules, which shows that Gaumont-British and Movietone newsreels were also shown, and there was a late-night news programme just before the close (see e.g. the schedules for 15 September and 21 September). I’d love to know more about the content of News Map and the news programme especially!

ErrolC:

I think I remember that, from Strategy and Tactics? Case Green maybe> At least, I remember drooling over the idea, don’t think I ever saw it.

Ricardo:

Thanks! That’s brilliant!

]]> By: Ricardo Reis http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87436 Ricardo Reis Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:15:51 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87436 About radio, just stumbled on this, it might be of interest: http://www.archive.org/details/WWII_News_1938 and they go back to 1932... About radio, just stumbled on this, it might be of interest:

http://www.archive.org/details/WWII_News_1938

and they go back to 1932…

]]> By: ErrolC http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87434 ErrolC Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:40:57 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87434 An interesting and worthwhile exercise, someone spoiled for me by being on holiday (with limited connectivity) for most of the last 3 weeks. Although I knew of most of the main facts, I certainly learnt plenty. BTW, there was a wargame in a magazine covering a German invasion (published 20-odd years ago). IIRC, I luckily managed a marginal win as the Czechs. An interesting and worthwhile exercise, someone spoiled for me by being on holiday (with limited connectivity) for most of the last 3 weeks.

Although I knew of most of the main facts, I certainly learnt plenty.

BTW, there was a wargame in a magazine covering a German invasion (published 20-odd years ago). IIRC, I luckily managed a marginal win as the Czechs.

]]> By: Alan Allport http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87433 Alan Allport Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:16:25 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87433 An excellent series, Brett; it should be required reading for everyone who uses the Munich analogy in the old pat, facile way. But I'm curious about something above: <i> I had initially hoped to talk about radio and even television coverage of the crisis.</i> Was there any? The latter, I mean. I realize that in 1938 we're just - barely - into the television age. But I have always assumed that TV before the war was basically a light show, a glorified toy - Mickey Mouse cartoons and potter's wheels and so on. Did the BBC, for instance, do any news or current affairs broadcasting on it? An excellent series, Brett; it should be required reading for everyone who uses the Munich analogy in the old pat, facile way.

But I’m curious about something above:

I had initially hoped to talk about radio and even television coverage of the crisis.

Was there any? The latter, I mean. I realize that in 1938 we’re just – barely – into the television age. But I have always assumed that TV before the war was basically a light show, a glorified toy – Mickey Mouse cartoons and potter’s wheels and so on. Did the BBC, for instance, do any news or current affairs broadcasting on it?

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2008/10/12/post-blogging-the-sudeten-crisis-thoughts-and-conclusions/comment-page-1/#comment-87424 Brett Holman Mon, 13 Oct 2008 06:15:55 +0000 http://airminded.org/?p=946#comment-87424 Gavin: Yes, I think that's right about the Soviet Union. Chamberlain was not a fan and did not seriously pursue the possibility of co-operation with the Soviets. To be fair, the purges had seriously impaired Soviet military effectiveness by this time, and Soviet forces would have had to go through Poland to get to Czechoslovakia or Germany, and the chances of Polish permission for that were minimal (for one thing, as we've seen, they had their own interests in dismembering Czechoslovakia). But I agree that it was the best chance for a non-appeasing strategy in 1938. Jonathan: I don't mind hearing it, because I wouldn't be doing it! :) But yes, that would be fascinating. Hopefully somebody will take that up. Actually, a book has recently been published on how the crisis unfolded on radio -- I think with an emphasis on Czech radio but also other languages as well: David Vaughan, <em>Battle for the Airwaves: Radio and the 1938 Munich Crisis</em>. There's an interview with the author <a href="http://www.radio.cz/en/article/108657" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Sounds fascinating (and I didn't know of Jonathan Griffin's broadcasts on Czech radio at the time: he wrote a couple of important knock-out blow books). Thanks to Jonathan Murphy for the tip! Gavin:

Yes, I think that’s right about the Soviet Union. Chamberlain was not a fan and did not seriously pursue the possibility of co-operation with the Soviets. To be fair, the purges had seriously impaired Soviet military effectiveness by this time, and Soviet forces would have had to go through Poland to get to Czechoslovakia or Germany, and the chances of Polish permission for that were minimal (for one thing, as we’ve seen, they had their own interests in dismembering Czechoslovakia). But I agree that it was the best chance for a non-appeasing strategy in 1938.

Jonathan:

I don’t mind hearing it, because I wouldn’t be doing it! :) But yes, that would be fascinating. Hopefully somebody will take that up. Actually, a book has recently been published on how the crisis unfolded on radio — I think with an emphasis on Czech radio but also other languages as well: David Vaughan, Battle for the Airwaves: Radio and the 1938 Munich Crisis. There’s an interview with the author here. Sounds fascinating (and I didn’t know of Jonathan Griffin’s broadcasts on Czech radio at the time: he wrote a couple of important knock-out blow books). Thanks to Jonathan Murphy for the tip!

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