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	<title>Comments on: Name that crisis!</title>
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	<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/</link>
	<description>Airpower and British society, 1908-1941</description>
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		<title>By: Paul W. Shafer</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-127816</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul W. Shafer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-127816</guid>
		<description>After being wined and dined by Goering and visiting the German aircraft factories and even the jet engine plant as it was, the chief of the French Air Force Joseph Vuillemin reported back to Gamelin and the French government, &quot;if the French Air Force went to war in 1938, it would be wiped out in less than two weeks.&quot; This was in early August 1938.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After being wined and dined by Goering and visiting the German aircraft factories and even the jet engine plant as it was, the chief of the French Air Force Joseph Vuillemin reported back to Gamelin and the French government, &#8220;if the French Air Force went to war in 1938, it would be wiped out in less than two weeks.&#8221; This was in early August 1938.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-127572</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-127572</guid>
		<description>But as we know (and the British and French staffs knew), the threat of attacking Germany from the West was just a threat. The French were no more capable of invasion in 1938 than they were in 1939; if the RAF had tried to bomb Germany with any intensity, it would have been trounced as thoroughly as it was with the Kiel raids (although that does depend on the state of the Luftwaffe&#039;s north sea defences, which may have been weaker in 1938 than they were in 1939). That was the reality; the illusion was even worse, since the Allies thought Germany was stronger than it was (at least in the air). And as the Chain Home system wasn&#039;t started until January 1939, Britain felt very vulnerable to a knock-out blow. I think this is a case where hindsight is 20/20.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But as we know (and the British and French staffs knew), the threat of attacking Germany from the West was just a threat. The French were no more capable of invasion in 1938 than they were in 1939; if the RAF had tried to bomb Germany with any intensity, it would have been trounced as thoroughly as it was with the Kiel raids (although that does depend on the state of the Luftwaffe&#8217;s north sea defences, which may have been weaker in 1938 than they were in 1939). That was the reality; the illusion was even worse, since the Allies thought Germany was stronger than it was (at least in the air). And as the Chain Home system wasn&#8217;t started until January 1939, Britain felt very vulnerable to a knock-out blow. I think this is a case where hindsight is 20/20.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul W. Shafer</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-127050</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul W. Shafer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-127050</guid>
		<description>Brett:

It is documented that the French and British considered the Soviet army and air force to be inferior in 1938 and probably would have had a difficult time moving through Poland (Moldovia?) to do much.  However, the simultaneous threat of France (with some BEF) moving from the West and USSR moving from the East may have prevented Hitler from moving beyond the Sudetenland so fast and delayed the invasion of Poland by the Nazi&#039;s and USSR.  The threat of using the early British heavy longer range bombers may have helped as well.

Britain did gain an additional year and one half to bring more Hurricanes, Blenheims and early heavies on line. They were extremely smart awarding a contract to Supermarine for the Spitfire and getting them built during this year and one half. They were able to fully mechanize their army, albeit the BEF was too small.  However, they were very short on adequate armor, anti-tank and AA units.

In the one year gained, France did a little to improve their armored forces, but not enough of the tanks that mattered:  Somua&#039;s, Char B-1&#039;s and the advanced Renault tank. They did not build enough mechanized artillery or adequate anti-tank units. France also did not listen to de Gaulle and other French and British armor experts to develop independant armored divisions until 1940. France also did little to improve their fighter force.  They chose to continue to build the obsolete MS-406 in lieu of the D-520 and D-550.  They chose not to buy and use the Merlin I engine. They did not manufacture enough LeO bombers instead choosing Berguet&#039;s which  and did not purchase USA planes (Douglas bomber and dive bombers) until the last minute.  France was extremely short on AA and mechanized infantry.  France chose to work on the Maginot Line but did not complete it to Lille.

During this one year, the Nazi&#039;s more than doubled their armored units and mechanized units as well as increasing their bomber forces. A large part of this was from Czech armament factories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brett:</p>
<p>It is documented that the French and British considered the Soviet army and air force to be inferior in 1938 and probably would have had a difficult time moving through Poland (Moldovia?) to do much.  However, the simultaneous threat of France (with some BEF) moving from the West and USSR moving from the East may have prevented Hitler from moving beyond the Sudetenland so fast and delayed the invasion of Poland by the Nazi&#8217;s and USSR.  The threat of using the early British heavy longer range bombers may have helped as well.</p>
<p>Britain did gain an additional year and one half to bring more Hurricanes, Blenheims and early heavies on line. They were extremely smart awarding a contract to Supermarine for the Spitfire and getting them built during this year and one half. They were able to fully mechanize their army, albeit the BEF was too small.  However, they were very short on adequate armor, anti-tank and AA units.</p>
<p>In the one year gained, France did a little to improve their armored forces, but not enough of the tanks that mattered:  Somua&#8217;s, Char B-1&#8217;s and the advanced Renault tank. They did not build enough mechanized artillery or adequate anti-tank units. France also did not listen to de Gaulle and other French and British armor experts to develop independant armored divisions until 1940. France also did little to improve their fighter force.  They chose to continue to build the obsolete MS-406 in lieu of the D-520 and D-550.  They chose not to buy and use the Merlin I engine. They did not manufacture enough LeO bombers instead choosing Berguet&#8217;s which  and did not purchase USA planes (Douglas bomber and dive bombers) until the last minute.  France was extremely short on AA and mechanized infantry.  France chose to work on the Maginot Line but did not complete it to Lille.</p>
<p>During this one year, the Nazi&#8217;s more than doubled their armored units and mechanized units as well as increasing their bomber forces. A large part of this was from Czech armament factories.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-126751</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 09:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-126751</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s all true, but France and Britain both put the year gained at Czechoslovakia&#039;s expense to good use as well, particularly in the air. The Soviet alliance counterfactual is hard to evaluate; I don&#039;t think anybody rated the Red Army much in the wake of the purges, and they&#039;d have had to force their way through Poland to get to Czechoslovakia. Soviet air support would have arrived much quicker, but I wonder how much it could contribute, so far from its own supply organisation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s all true, but France and Britain both put the year gained at Czechoslovakia&#8217;s expense to good use as well, particularly in the air. The Soviet alliance counterfactual is hard to evaluate; I don&#8217;t think anybody rated the Red Army much in the wake of the purges, and they&#8217;d have had to force their way through Poland to get to Czechoslovakia. Soviet air support would have arrived much quicker, but I wonder how much it could contribute, so far from its own supply organisation.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul W. Shafer</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-126442</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul W. Shafer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 21:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-126442</guid>
		<description>Dear all:

Adam&#039;s comment is very interesting indeed.  The Nazi&#039;s needed the armament factories of Czechoslovakia badly. These were outside the Sudetenland near Prague.  Without the Pz 38 and all of its variants, Rommel and other Army groups would have had a hard time taking on the French tanks.  The Hetzer and Marder weapons later caused havoc with the British tanks and even with the USA M-3 and M-5&#039;s.

That is one reason, why I still believe that this was a Franco-Anglo crisis.  The other reason is, France and England lost all credibility with USSR after this occured which lead to the August 1939 agreement between Hitler and Stalin which really allowed for control of Europe until the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad and in Tunisia/Sicily.

Paul Shafer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear all:</p>
<p>Adam&#8217;s comment is very interesting indeed.  The Nazi&#8217;s needed the armament factories of Czechoslovakia badly. These were outside the Sudetenland near Prague.  Without the Pz 38 and all of its variants, Rommel and other Army groups would have had a hard time taking on the French tanks.  The Hetzer and Marder weapons later caused havoc with the British tanks and even with the USA M-3 and M-5&#8217;s.</p>
<p>That is one reason, why I still believe that this was a Franco-Anglo crisis.  The other reason is, France and England lost all credibility with USSR after this occured which lead to the August 1939 agreement between Hitler and Stalin which really allowed for control of Europe until the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad and in Tunisia/Sicily.</p>
<p>Paul Shafer</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-125602</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 05:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-125602</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Adam. Can&#039;t really blame you for feeling bitter -- although it was two generations ago now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Adam. Can&#8217;t really blame you for feeling bitter &#8212; although it was two generations ago now.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-125439</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-125439</guid>
		<description>Dear colleagues, 

If you don&#039;t mind listening to the opinion of someone who is a Czech citizen and who sees and feels the whole issue &quot;from inside&quot;, I would say that the event is known here (in the Czech Republic) as Munich Crisis or Munich Agreement or Munich Betrayal). Very popular phrase here is also &quot;about us without us&quot;. That is also why we don&#039;t like foreigners very much, especially if they are from Germany or Russia.-) 

Of course what happened in the past was not their fault but this tragedy determined the faith of the whole nation for 80 years and it is very significant even now. 

If this all did not happend Czechoslovakia would be economically and socially at least as strong as Germany, France or Switzerland. And it is little funny that these days, people from Germany, France or Britain consider us as being &quot;that poor country&quot; somewhere in the east....but you made us becoming such a country guys...or at least your polititians did. 

We will never forget this and I will make sure my children learn all about the Munich Betrayal very carefully

Kind regards

Adam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear colleagues, </p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t mind listening to the opinion of someone who is a Czech citizen and who sees and feels the whole issue &#8220;from inside&#8221;, I would say that the event is known here (in the Czech Republic) as Munich Crisis or Munich Agreement or Munich Betrayal). Very popular phrase here is also &#8220;about us without us&#8221;. That is also why we don&#8217;t like foreigners very much, especially if they are from Germany or Russia.-) </p>
<p>Of course what happened in the past was not their fault but this tragedy determined the faith of the whole nation for 80 years and it is very significant even now. </p>
<p>If this all did not happend Czechoslovakia would be economically and socially at least as strong as Germany, France or Switzerland. And it is little funny that these days, people from Germany, France or Britain consider us as being &#8220;that poor country&#8221; somewhere in the east&#8230;.but you made us becoming such a country guys&#8230;or at least your polititians did. </p>
<p>We will never forget this and I will make sure my children learn all about the Munich Betrayal very carefully</p>
<p>Kind regards</p>
<p>Adam</p>
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		<title>By: Airminded &#183; Post-blogging the Sudeten crisis: thoughts and conclusions</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-87408</link>
		<dc:creator>Airminded &#183; Post-blogging the Sudeten crisis: thoughts and conclusions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-87408</guid>
		<description>[...] I wonder how these posts will be used in future. They were designed to be read sequentially, day-by-day, and some of you have done so; but in future I expect people will more commonly surf in randomly from search engines, maybe read a few entries and surf out again. The context built up by following the development of the crisis will be lost. Also, as far as search engines go, my pedantic insistence on &#8220;Sudeten crisis&#8221; over &#8220;Munich crisis&#8221; may be a hindrance; on Google I come in at 4th place for the former term but only 49th for the latter, and even then that was for my earlier post on terminology. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I wonder how these posts will be used in future. They were designed to be read sequentially, day-by-day, and some of you have done so; but in future I expect people will more commonly surf in randomly from search engines, maybe read a few entries and surf out again. The context built up by following the development of the crisis will be lost. Also, as far as search engines go, my pedantic insistence on &#8220;Sudeten crisis&#8221; over &#8220;Munich crisis&#8221; may be a hindrance; on Google I come in at 4th place for the former term but only 49th for the latter, and even then that was for my earlier post on terminology. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Airminded &#183; Thursday, 29 September 1938</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-86168</link>
		<dc:creator>Airminded &#183; Thursday, 29 September 1938</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-86168</guid>
		<description>[...] Sudeten crisis, and a new word has entered the headlines: &#8216;Munich&#8217; (The Times, p. 12). See what I mean? &#8216;Munich&#8217; and &#8216;crisis&#8217; shouldn&#8217;t go [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sudeten crisis, and a new word has entered the headlines: &#8216;Munich&#8217; (The Times, p. 12). See what I mean? &#8216;Munich&#8217; and &#8216;crisis&#8217; shouldn&#8217;t go [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Shafer</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/07/31/name-that-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-80868</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Shafer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/?p=535#comment-80868</guid>
		<description>Ambassador Coulondre of France wrote in 1938 after Daladier and Chamberlain abandonned the Czechs, &quot;Munich tolled the bell for a certain France, la grande France of former times and even 1914.....The tolling of bells do not kill a sick man!  They announce his death. The accord of Munich did not 
provoke the fall of France. It registered it!&quot;

Two years later Coulondre was proven correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ambassador Coulondre of France wrote in 1938 after Daladier and Chamberlain abandonned the Czechs, &#8220;Munich tolled the bell for a certain France, la grande France of former times and even 1914&#8230;..The tolling of bells do not kill a sick man!  They announce his death. The accord of Munich did not<br />
provoke the fall of France. It registered it!&#8221;</p>
<p>Two years later Coulondre was proven correct.</p>
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