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	<title>Comments on: Out of the depths</title>
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	<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/</link>
	<description>Airpower and British society, 1908-1941</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-77781</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-77781</guid>
		<description>I presume the documentary will be out on (region 4) DVD at some point, but I can't see any evidence of that yet. It will be worth getting if you're at all interested, as it sounds like you are! I can't remember if there was any sort of composite image similar to what you're looking for -- I don't think so, probably just some computer graphics of how the ships sank and settled on the bottom. Maybe one will be done after they've explored the wrecks more thoroughly.

Yes, that scenario does sound familiar, and again it's why conspiracy theories seem unnecessary. Surprise and the sudden blinding of &lt;em&gt;Sydney&lt;/em&gt; seems sufficient to explain the result, especially given their relatively equal armaments.

Just a pedantic point: the correct prefix for a RAN ship's name is HMAS, 'His Majesty's Australian Ship' (or 'Her', as it is presently). Thus HMAS &lt;em&gt;Sydney&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I presume the documentary will be out on (region 4) DVD at some point, but I can&#8217;t see any evidence of that yet. It will be worth getting if you&#8217;re at all interested, as it sounds like you are! I can&#8217;t remember if there was any sort of composite image similar to what you&#8217;re looking for &#8212; I don&#8217;t think so, probably just some computer graphics of how the ships sank and settled on the bottom. Maybe one will be done after they&#8217;ve explored the wrecks more thoroughly.</p>
<p>Yes, that scenario does sound familiar, and again it&#8217;s why conspiracy theories seem unnecessary. Surprise and the sudden blinding of <em>Sydney</em> seems sufficient to explain the result, especially given their relatively equal armaments.</p>
<p>Just a pedantic point: the correct prefix for a RAN ship&#8217;s name is HMAS, &#8216;His Majesty&#8217;s Australian Ship&#8217; (or &#8216;Her&#8217;, as it is presently). Thus HMAS <em>Sydney</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Hutchinson</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-77503</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Hutchinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-77503</guid>
		<description>Unhappily I'm not allowed to see the video "Finding Sydney" as I live in the US (copyright restrictions). Anyone have ideas? I would like to see a photo composite of the whole of RANS Sydney (or artists rendering) as has been done for other sunken vessals.

I'm a loooonnnggg time naval history buff and the great sea raiders (any nation and era) are on my short list. The Pacific below ~20 north in general seems a hot spot going back to the era of the Spanish Empire (and who can say what went on before then). After looking up SMS Emden and SMS Seeadler (WW1), the battle between RANS Sydney and KMS Cormoran wasn't hard to find.

Not discussed here yet: there are some who feel that Cormoran lured Sydney "beyond common war curtousy" as one local to me put it. Meaning Capt. Detmers' didn't run up the war flag moments before firing. I would generally say no to this as German surface officers of any recent era have about the best rep possible for following the conventions of the sea in this regard. One can only realistically say that the Cormoran's disguise must have been impressive and perhaps only exceeded by Count von Luckner's Seeadler. My sincere regards to all who still have a tender spot about the outcome.

I also have played a minitures wargame over this scenario a while ago (1st Gulf War) we called the Q-ship scenario. We supposed the Straits of Hormuz as a location. An American frigate (I think it was the USS TAYLOR, FFG 50, 1990's weapons) escorting a line of loaded tankers going east and a Chinese built and Arab crewed ship on the return west as the adversary, mounting 2 torps and 4 x 6" guns a side plus big RPG's and 4 x 20 mm AA (all single mounts). It was in a line of other empty ships as cover and, as the seas are narrow and Iran close, the lines a sea mile apart. We gave the escort a helicoptor in the air and the Arabs first draw with a dozen RPG zodiacs as a diversion from the coast of Iran. One of the Taylor's tankers was allowed a pair of 50 cals as she was used in the Malacca Straits run or something (Ausy Captain?) The results weren't pretty. 3 tankers holed, 2 tankers beached and burning. The escort gets beatup at 60% damage level (one torp hit and 25 x 6" rounds and a nasty spray of 20 mm). All the terrorists are krispy kritters and their ship a smoking hole in the ocean eventually. (The F-14 air cover was dice rolled as 20 minutes response but not needed). The key was the concentration on the Taylor's control and detection centers. Sound familiar?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unhappily I&#8217;m not allowed to see the video &#8220;Finding Sydney&#8221; as I live in the US (copyright restrictions). Anyone have ideas? I would like to see a photo composite of the whole of RANS Sydney (or artists rendering) as has been done for other sunken vessals.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a loooonnnggg time naval history buff and the great sea raiders (any nation and era) are on my short list. The Pacific below ~20 north in general seems a hot spot going back to the era of the Spanish Empire (and who can say what went on before then). After looking up SMS Emden and SMS Seeadler (WW1), the battle between RANS Sydney and KMS Cormoran wasn&#8217;t hard to find.</p>
<p>Not discussed here yet: there are some who feel that Cormoran lured Sydney &#8220;beyond common war curtousy&#8221; as one local to me put it. Meaning Capt. Detmers&#8217; didn&#8217;t run up the war flag moments before firing. I would generally say no to this as German surface officers of any recent era have about the best rep possible for following the conventions of the sea in this regard. One can only realistically say that the Cormoran&#8217;s disguise must have been impressive and perhaps only exceeded by Count von Luckner&#8217;s Seeadler. My sincere regards to all who still have a tender spot about the outcome.</p>
<p>I also have played a minitures wargame over this scenario a while ago (1st Gulf War) we called the Q-ship scenario. We supposed the Straits of Hormuz as a location. An American frigate (I think it was the USS TAYLOR, FFG 50, 1990&#8217;s weapons) escorting a line of loaded tankers going east and a Chinese built and Arab crewed ship on the return west as the adversary, mounting 2 torps and 4 x 6&#8243; guns a side plus big RPG&#8217;s and 4 x 20 mm AA (all single mounts). It was in a line of other empty ships as cover and, as the seas are narrow and Iran close, the lines a sea mile apart. We gave the escort a helicoptor in the air and the Arabs first draw with a dozen RPG zodiacs as a diversion from the coast of Iran. One of the Taylor&#8217;s tankers was allowed a pair of 50 cals as she was used in the Malacca Straits run or something (Ausy Captain?) The results weren&#8217;t pretty. 3 tankers holed, 2 tankers beached and burning. The escort gets beatup at 60% damage level (one torp hit and 25 x 6&#8243; rounds and a nasty spray of 20 mm). All the terrorists are krispy kritters and their ship a smoking hole in the ocean eventually. (The F-14 air cover was dice rolled as 20 minutes response but not needed). The key was the concentration on the Taylor&#8217;s control and detection centers. Sound familiar?</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72935</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72935</guid>
		<description>There was an excellent documentary on the ABC tonight, &lt;a href="http://www.abc.net.au/tv/hmassydney/" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;em&gt;Finding Sydney&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a&gt;. Lots of fascinating footage of both the wrecks -- some pictures are up at the &lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.findingsydney.com/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Finding Sydney Foundation&lt;/a&gt; website. The conspiracy angle was mentioned but not overemphasised (to my relief), and there were also some moving stories from the families of the &lt;em&gt;Sydney's&lt;/em&gt; crew. Most moving of all was that of a woman who married a sailor from &lt;em&gt;Sydney&lt;/em&gt; just before he left on its final cruise. He left at 2am on their wedding night, and she never saw him again.

The investigation of the wreck seems to give no support to the conspiracy theories. A majority of the lifeboats were found with the wreck, so the crew presumably weren't machine-gunned by the Germans (or the Japanese). It appears that &lt;em&gt;Kormoran's&lt;/em&gt; torpedo hit the &lt;em&gt;Sydney's&lt;/em&gt; bow, which literally fell off as the &lt;em&gt;Sydney&lt;/em&gt; drifted (or possibly steamed) away. It therefore sunk very suddenly, which probably explains why there were no survivors. 

And they showed Detmers' dictionary, the source of the secret account I mentioned in the previous comment (certain words were marked with pencil dots, which apparently adds up to a coherent account of the battle). I would have liked to learn more about this -- apparently it was one of the wreckhunters who discovered this, so it's unclear if any historians have been near it. Anyway, it wasn't the sole clue for the searchers, as they were modifying the search area right up to the day they sailed based on information about currents and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was an excellent documentary on the ABC tonight, <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/tv/hmassydney/" rel="nofollow"><em>Finding Sydney</em></a><a>. Lots of fascinating footage of both the wrecks &#8212; some pictures are up at the </a><a href="http://www.findingsydney.com/" rel="nofollow">Finding Sydney Foundation</a> website. The conspiracy angle was mentioned but not overemphasised (to my relief), and there were also some moving stories from the families of the <em>Sydney&#8217;s</em> crew. Most moving of all was that of a woman who married a sailor from <em>Sydney</em> just before he left on its final cruise. He left at 2am on their wedding night, and she never saw him again.</p>
<p>The investigation of the wreck seems to give no support to the conspiracy theories. A majority of the lifeboats were found with the wreck, so the crew presumably weren&#8217;t machine-gunned by the Germans (or the Japanese). It appears that <em>Kormoran&#8217;s</em> torpedo hit the <em>Sydney&#8217;s</em> bow, which literally fell off as the <em>Sydney</em> drifted (or possibly steamed) away. It therefore sunk very suddenly, which probably explains why there were no survivors. </p>
<p>And they showed Detmers&#8217; dictionary, the source of the secret account I mentioned in the previous comment (certain words were marked with pencil dots, which apparently adds up to a coherent account of the battle). I would have liked to learn more about this &#8212; apparently it was one of the wreckhunters who discovered this, so it&#8217;s unclear if any historians have been near it. Anyway, it wasn&#8217;t the sole clue for the searchers, as they were modifying the search area right up to the day they sailed based on information about currents and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72490</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 14:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72490</guid>
		<description>No worries, deni. Stuartie's right, according to &lt;a href="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AUSTRALIA_WRECK_MYSTERY?SITE=TXPLA&#038;SECTION=HOME&#038;TEMPLATE=DEFAULT" rel="nofollow"&gt;this report&lt;/a&gt;, to find the wrecks the searchers used an apparently secret account of the battle written by Detmers while a POW (though it also claims his first name was 'Theodora'!). Also, the damage to the &lt;em&gt;Sydney&lt;/em&gt; appears to corroborate the accounts of the Germans, as far as it goes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No worries, deni. Stuartie&#8217;s right, according to <a href="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AUSTRALIA_WRECK_MYSTERY?SITE=TXPLA&#038;SECTION=HOME&#038;TEMPLATE=DEFAULT" rel="nofollow">this report</a>, to find the wrecks the searchers used an apparently secret account of the battle written by Detmers while a POW (though it also claims his first name was &#8216;Theodora&#8217;!). Also, the damage to the <em>Sydney</em> appears to corroborate the accounts of the Germans, as far as it goes.</p>
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		<title>By: deni</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72452</link>
		<dc:creator>deni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 05:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72452</guid>
		<description>all interesting replies. I am just passing on what the the old fella told me about his own experiences with the crew and captain and what his contemporaries thought. He actually said that he felt the German prisoners had more freedom than the Australian guards. The same man i am talking about was also in New Guinea and some of the horror stories that i have heard from him often don't appear in official records too. My instinct tells me that there is more to the whole story of the Sydney than we have yet discovered...but thats just instinct i guess. Thanks for filling me in on the official details though and will keep track of events on this forum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>all interesting replies. I am just passing on what the the old fella told me about his own experiences with the crew and captain and what his contemporaries thought. He actually said that he felt the German prisoners had more freedom than the Australian guards. The same man i am talking about was also in New Guinea and some of the horror stories that i have heard from him often don&#8217;t appear in official records too. My instinct tells me that there is more to the whole story of the Sydney than we have yet discovered&#8230;but thats just instinct i guess. Thanks for filling me in on the official details though and will keep track of events on this forum.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuartie</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72431</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuartie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72431</guid>
		<description>With referenece the lack of co-operation. The German captain, Detmers, appears to have told the truth about the site of the battle. I'm no apologist for the Geramn side during the war, but he doesn't seen to have been a rampant Nazi:  From Taylor 'I was a prisoner of the Kormoran:

"Having spent over a month on board the raider, it had become clear to the crew of the Mareeba that Detmers ‘had a soft spot’ for Australians in particular, and other ‘Anglo-Saxons’ in general, as they received more privileges than the other nationalities among the Kormoran’s prisoners.

But this favouritism reached new and unexpected heights one evening in August, when two German officers, one of whom was apparently the raider’s navigator, entered the Australian’s quarters and presented them with four bottles of rum!"

 but then who can tell?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With referenece the lack of co-operation. The German captain, Detmers, appears to have told the truth about the site of the battle. I&#8217;m no apologist for the Geramn side during the war, but he doesn&#8217;t seen to have been a rampant Nazi:  From Taylor &#8216;I was a prisoner of the Kormoran:</p>
<p>&#8220;Having spent over a month on board the raider, it had become clear to the crew of the Mareeba that Detmers ‘had a soft spot’ for Australians in particular, and other ‘Anglo-Saxons’ in general, as they received more privileges than the other nationalities among the Kormoran’s prisoners.</p>
<p>But this favouritism reached new and unexpected heights one evening in August, when two German officers, one of whom was apparently the raider’s navigator, entered the Australian’s quarters and presented them with four bottles of rum!&#8221;</p>
<p> but then who can tell?</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72334</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 11:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72334</guid>
		<description>With respect, I'm not sure why the later impressions of POW camp guards should be given any weight at all. They weren't there when the &lt;em&gt;Sydney&lt;/em&gt; met its fate. (The unpleasant attitude of the &lt;em&gt;Kormoran's&lt;/em&gt; crew is most puzzling: I'm sure they were treated with unfailing kindness, even despite having killed 645 of the guards' compatriots.) The parliamentary committee which looked at the &lt;em&gt;Sydney&lt;/em&gt; mystery a decade ago went into the question of the German survivors' testimony: see &lt;a href="http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/sydney/Sydch_6.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;,  6.51-6.73. They note that none of them have significantly altered their stories in the decades since the war, and that they were thoroughly interrogated at the time. In fact, the interrogators didn't trust them either and used hidden microphones and German-speaking guards to try and catch them out. But didn't.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With respect, I&#8217;m not sure why the later impressions of POW camp guards should be given any weight at all. They weren&#8217;t there when the <em>Sydney</em> met its fate. (The unpleasant attitude of the <em>Kormoran&#8217;s</em> crew is most puzzling: I&#8217;m sure they were treated with unfailing kindness, even despite having killed 645 of the guards&#8217; compatriots.) The parliamentary committee which looked at the <em>Sydney</em> mystery a decade ago went into the question of the German survivors&#8217; testimony: see <a href="http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/sydney/Sydch_6.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>,  6.51-6.73. They note that none of them have significantly altered their stories in the decades since the war, and that they were thoroughly interrogated at the time. In fact, the interrogators didn&#8217;t trust them either and used hidden microphones and German-speaking guards to try and catch them out. But didn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: deni</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72287</link>
		<dc:creator>deni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 07:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72287</guid>
		<description>I have been lucky enough to have spoken to a man that was an army medic and also a guard of the German survivors from the 'Kormoran'. He dealt directly with the German Captain of the Kormoran and many of the sailors. He basically said they were a pack of bastards and totally uncooperative. How acurate is their testimony going to be? The general view of the blokes who were there at the time is that there was Japanese involvment in the sinking of the Sydney. Heres more conspiracy for you...Mr Rudd doesnt visit Japan on his world Jaunt, tensions on the high seas from whaleing??? Aus gov launches a new 'Sydney' inquiry. Do we find out that one of our major trading partners sank an Australian ship before Pearl Harbour?? "who knows"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been lucky enough to have spoken to a man that was an army medic and also a guard of the German survivors from the &#8216;Kormoran&#8217;. He dealt directly with the German Captain of the Kormoran and many of the sailors. He basically said they were a pack of bastards and totally uncooperative. How acurate is their testimony going to be? The general view of the blokes who were there at the time is that there was Japanese involvment in the sinking of the Sydney. Heres more conspiracy for you&#8230;Mr Rudd doesnt visit Japan on his world Jaunt, tensions on the high seas from whaleing??? Aus gov launches a new &#8216;Sydney&#8217; inquiry. Do we find out that one of our major trading partners sank an Australian ship before Pearl Harbour?? &#8220;who knows&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72281</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72281</guid>
		<description>CK:

That's what I don't get. It's pretty easy to see what happened, why all the speculation based on no evidence -- or at least, no reliable evidence -- whatsoever? There's an &lt;a href="http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79318" rel="nofollow"&gt;interesting thread&lt;/a&gt; at the Key Publishing forum which suggests that the rumours began very soon after the loss of the &lt;em&gt;Sydney&lt;/em&gt;, and that they had their origins in the RAN's embarrassment -- at best, because very little information was given out, though there are hints that there was some sort of semi-official backing given to the submarine story. I don't know whether any of that is true, I'm sure Tom Frame or somebody must have looked at the wartime rumours.

On the signals sent or not sent, a reader sent me this interesting link via email: http://www.dsd.gov.au/sigint/hmas_sydney.html

(And yes, she was pleasing to the eye, wasn't she?)

Ric:

Thanks for your comment and your corrections! (That's what happens when I stray outside my usual sphere of incompetence ...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CK:</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what I don&#8217;t get. It&#8217;s pretty easy to see what happened, why all the speculation based on no evidence &#8212; or at least, no reliable evidence &#8212; whatsoever? There&#8217;s an <a href="http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79318" rel="nofollow">interesting thread</a> at the Key Publishing forum which suggests that the rumours began very soon after the loss of the <em>Sydney</em>, and that they had their origins in the RAN&#8217;s embarrassment &#8212; at best, because very little information was given out, though there are hints that there was some sort of semi-official backing given to the submarine story. I don&#8217;t know whether any of that is true, I&#8217;m sure Tom Frame or somebody must have looked at the wartime rumours.</p>
<p>On the signals sent or not sent, a reader sent me this interesting link via email: <a href="http://www.dsd.gov.au/sigint/hmas_sydney.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dsd.gov.au/sigint/hmas_sydney.html</a></p>
<p>(And yes, she was pleasing to the eye, wasn&#8217;t she?)</p>
<p>Ric:</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment and your corrections! (That&#8217;s what happens when I stray outside my usual sphere of incompetence &#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Ric Pelvin</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72156</link>
		<dc:creator>Ric Pelvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2008/03/17/out-of-the-depths/#comment-72156</guid>
		<description>Good post, covering the issues well. But reading Gill's account, there is no evidence that SYDNEY blew up. The last seen of her were flickerings of fire in the night. No explosion was reported. Reports indicate that the hull is essentially intact. There was, however, a serious explosion which took the top off B turret during the action, but the shi

Minor irritating technical point: during WW II the Royal Navy operated their fleet destroyers in flotillas, not squadrons. Each flotilla usually had two divisions. At Cape Spada SYDNEY was operating in a support of a division of destroyers and this terminology is reflected in Collins' report of the action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, covering the issues well. But reading Gill&#8217;s account, there is no evidence that SYDNEY blew up. The last seen of her were flickerings of fire in the night. No explosion was reported. Reports indicate that the hull is essentially intact. There was, however, a serious explosion which took the top off B turret during the action, but the shi</p>
<p>Minor irritating technical point: during WW II the Royal Navy operated their fleet destroyers in flotillas, not squadrons. Each flotilla usually had two divisions. At Cape Spada SYDNEY was operating in a support of a division of destroyers and this terminology is reflected in Collins&#8217; report of the action.</p>
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