Comments on: The Afghan air menace http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/ Airpower and British society, 1908-1941 Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:27:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Airminded · A giant of the air http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/comment-page-1/#comment-73843 Airminded · A giant of the air Tue, 06 May 2008 15:31:47 +0000 http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/#comment-73843 [...] Handley-Page V/1500, the Kabul bomber. Below is (I think) a [...] [...] Handley-Page V/1500, the Kabul bomber. Below is (I think) a [...]

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/comment-page-1/#comment-70588 Brett Holman Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:39:55 +0000 http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/#comment-70588 Thanks, Dan. I suppose what they meant depended more on the needs and concerns of the individual prayers, than on what the ecclesiastical hierarchy said they meant. Thanks, Dan. I suppose what they meant depended more on the needs and concerns of the individual prayers, than on what the ecclesiastical hierarchy said they meant.

]]> By: Dan http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/comment-page-1/#comment-70309 Dan Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:24:45 +0000 http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/#comment-70309 I think there's something good to be written about national days of prayer in Britain. Michael Snape and Stephen Parker have a good chapter in Bourne, Liddle and Whitehead eds, The Great World War 1914-45 II: Who Won, Who Lost? on religion, but it leaves plenty of space. That such days meant _something_, even if what that was went unspecified, is apparent in the frequency with which they're remarked on in contemporary diaries. I think there’s something good to be written about national days of prayer in Britain. Michael Snape and Stephen Parker have a good chapter in Bourne, Liddle and Whitehead eds, The Great World War 1914-45 II: Who Won, Who Lost? on religion, but it leaves plenty of space. That such days meant _something_, even if what that was went unspecified, is apparent in the frequency with which they’re remarked on in contemporary diaries.

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/comment-page-1/#comment-70279 Brett Holman Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:17:50 +0000 http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/#comment-70279 Thanks, interesting, but as you say it's more about the fall of Mussolini, not Italy. Rome was bombed in July but it took nearly 2 months to arrange a surrender. (It didn't help that about the first thing I read, on p. 78, was that the Rome raid was 'the largest single bombing raid in history to date' -- what was Operation Millennium then, a slap on the wrist?) But it looks like it could well have been an important factor with regards to Mussolini and also declaring Rome an open city. Thanks, interesting, but as you say it’s more about the fall of Mussolini, not Italy. Rome was bombed in July but it took nearly 2 months to arrange a surrender. (It didn’t help that about the first thing I read, on p. 78, was that the Rome raid was ‘the largest single bombing raid in history to date’ — what was Operation Millennium then, a slap on the wrist?) But it looks like it could well have been an important factor with regards to Mussolini and also declaring Rome an open city.

]]> By: Chris Williams http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/comment-page-1/#comment-70243 Chris Williams Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:03:46 +0000 http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/#comment-70243 Here's an argument that the Rome raid in 1943 was the event that swung the King round to a 'ditch Mussolini' position: http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA391819 OTOH, it's written from Maxwell AFB's Institute for Advanced Airpower Studies, so I wonder what its chances of passing would have been had it concluded "Air Power? Paper tiger, mate." Here’s an argument that the Rome raid in 1943 was the event that swung the King round to a ‘ditch Mussolini’ position:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA391819

OTOH, it’s written from Maxwell AFB’s Institute for Advanced Airpower Studies, so I wonder what its chances of passing would have been had it concluded “Air Power? Paper tiger, mate.”

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/comment-page-1/#comment-70238 Brett Holman Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:32:10 +0000 http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/#comment-70238 I haven't looked at Mass-Obs much, but that fits in with my conclusions based on other sources. National prayer days -- yes, they could be something similar, though that one is not prayers for deliverance (except maybe implicitly) but prayers of thanks for 'mercies received during the war', including 'the faithfulness of the chaplains' (!) I'd say Warsaw and Rome weren't KOBs as they didn't change the course of the war, or accelerate its end significantly, as far as I know. Warsaw wasn't bombed really heavily until more than 3 weeks in (I think) and Italy negotiated a peace because of the invasion of Sicily. One possibility that's been mentioned is Belgrade in 1941. From <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Belgrade_in_World_War_II" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a>: <blockquote>The Luftwaffe bombed the city on April 6 (Palm Sunday) without a declaration of war, continuing bombing until April 10. More than 500 bombing sorties were flown against Belgrade in three waves coming from Romania where German forces were assembled for the attack on the Soviet Union, and killing approximately 17,000 civilians. Most of the government officials fled, and the Yugoslav army began to collapse.</blockquote> Sounds pretty KOBbish, though then again Yugoslavia was doomed no matter what. I haven’t looked at Mass-Obs much, but that fits in with my conclusions based on other sources. National prayer days — yes, they could be something similar, though that one is not prayers for deliverance (except maybe implicitly) but prayers of thanks for ‘mercies received during the war’, including ‘the faithfulness of the chaplains’ (!)

I’d say Warsaw and Rome weren’t KOBs as they didn’t change the course of the war, or accelerate its end significantly, as far as I know. Warsaw wasn’t bombed really heavily until more than 3 weeks in (I think) and Italy negotiated a peace because of the invasion of Sicily. One possibility that’s been mentioned is Belgrade in 1941. From Wikipedia:

The Luftwaffe bombed the city on April 6 (Palm Sunday) without a declaration of war, continuing bombing until April 10. More than 500 bombing sorties were flown against Belgrade in three waves coming from Romania where German forces were assembled for the attack on the Soviet Union, and killing approximately 17,000 civilians. Most of the government officials fled, and the Yugoslav army began to collapse.

Sounds pretty KOBbish, though then again Yugoslavia was doomed no matter what.

]]> By: Chris Williams http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/comment-page-1/#comment-70226 Chris Williams Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:09:20 +0000 http://airminded.org/2008/02/12/the-afghan-air-menace/#comment-70226 Mm, nice one. Mass-Observation did a report called: 'The need for an offensive morale', which might be interesting here. In the actually existing long-term blitzes of WW2, counter-offensive was specifically played up as being part of the best response to morale problems caused by bombing - "Don't worry Mrs. Higgins/Frau Schmitt - we're knocking their houses down too." Hastings claims that psychology also crippled the German night-fighter strategy, since Hitler stopped (very effective) intruder missions on the basis that he wanted Allied bombers downed over Germany for morale reasons. And another thing - is there a British equivalent to the Nuer pyramid in national days of prayer? See The Times, Wednesday, Jan 02, 1918; pg. 3; Issue 41676; col B. 'The Day Of National Prayer. Next Sunday's Services'. KOBs: Warsaw 1939? Rome 1943? Mm, nice one. Mass-Observation did a report called: ‘The need for an offensive morale’, which might be interesting here. In the actually existing long-term blitzes of WW2, counter-offensive was specifically played up as being part of the best response to morale problems caused by bombing – “Don’t worry Mrs. Higgins/Frau Schmitt – we’re knocking their houses down too.” Hastings claims that psychology also crippled the German night-fighter strategy, since Hitler stopped (very effective) intruder missions on the basis that he wanted Allied bombers downed over Germany for morale reasons.

And another thing – is there a British equivalent to the Nuer pyramid in national days of prayer? See The Times, Wednesday, Jan 02, 1918; pg. 3; Issue 41676; col B. ‘The Day Of National Prayer. Next Sunday’s Services’.

KOBs: Warsaw 1939? Rome 1943?

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