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	<title>Comments on: Sealion 1918</title>
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	<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/</link>
	<description>Airpower and British society, 1908-1941</description>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-85783</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-85783</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d be interested to hear what he says ... but no need to mention my name :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be interested to hear what he says &#8230; but no need to mention my name :)</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Ross</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-85658</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-85658</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the pointer - had not heard of the book.

Wilson&#039;s slant is interesting - it would apply to Messenger&#039;s work for instance, as he concerned with the raising and training of the British Army and the battles are but mentioned only in their effect on that task.

I must have words with Professor Wilson when next I meet him - he lives in the same city as me (he moved here on his retirement) and I have run into him at various meetings.  His collaborator Robin Prior is also here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the pointer &#8211; had not heard of the book.</p>
<p>Wilson&#8217;s slant is interesting &#8211; it would apply to Messenger&#8217;s work for instance, as he concerned with the raising and training of the British Army and the battles are but mentioned only in their effect on that task.</p>
<p>I must have words with Professor Wilson when next I meet him &#8211; he lives in the same city as me (he moved here on his retirement) and I have run into him at various meetings.  His collaborator Robin Prior is also here.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-85654</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-85654</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Daniel. Have you read &lt;em&gt;Defending Albion: Britain’s Home Army, 1908-1919&lt;/em&gt; by K. W. Mitchinson? I had a minor rant about a review of it, &lt;a href=&quot;http://airminded.org/2006/06/02/stop-me-if-im-boring-you/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Daniel. Have you read <em>Defending Albion: Britain’s Home Army, 1908-1919</em> by K. W. Mitchinson? I had a minor rant about a review of it, <a href="http://airminded.org/2006/06/02/stop-me-if-im-boring-you/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Ross</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-85632</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-85632</guid>
		<description>For the British Army in 1914 I would suggest you read Charles Messenger&#039;s Call To Arms: The British Army 1914-18 and Trevor Holmes&#039; Tommy: The British Soldier On The Western Front.  The former in particular is very precise on what the role of the &quot;Terriers&quot; (and certain second line formations) on outbreak of war (guarding of vital points) and their roles being taken over by the third line units.  It was a combination of anti-invasion and anti-saboteur work - the latter covered industrial sabotage by Irish and other disgruntled elements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the British Army in 1914 I would suggest you read Charles Messenger&#8217;s Call To Arms: The British Army 1914-18 and Trevor Holmes&#8217; Tommy: The British Soldier On The Western Front.  The former in particular is very precise on what the role of the &#8220;Terriers&#8221; (and certain second line formations) on outbreak of war (guarding of vital points) and their roles being taken over by the third line units.  It was a combination of anti-invasion and anti-saboteur work &#8211; the latter covered industrial sabotage by Irish and other disgruntled elements.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-66622</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-66622</guid>
		<description>Could be! But to me, that&#039;s a problem in itself. I can&#039;t stand it when writers make stronger statements than they can possibly actually mean. It&#039;s bad enough when they obviously don&#039;t mean something literally (or don&#039;t understand what the word means ... like &#039;infinite&#039;), but here it&#039;s more of a grey area. The way it&#039;s written, he could mean for it to be taken at face value. Or maybe he doesn&#039;t, but then why say it? 

I thought academic writing was supposed to be laden with ifs, ands and buts, maybes and perhapses. Sometimes ambiguity is precision!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could be! But to me, that&#8217;s a problem in itself. I can&#8217;t stand it when writers make stronger statements than they can possibly actually mean. It&#8217;s bad enough when they obviously don&#8217;t mean something literally (or don&#8217;t understand what the word means &#8230; like &#8216;infinite&#8217;), but here it&#8217;s more of a grey area. The way it&#8217;s written, he could mean for it to be taken at face value. Or maybe he doesn&#8217;t, but then why say it? </p>
<p>I thought academic writing was supposed to be laden with ifs, ands and buts, maybes and perhapses. Sometimes ambiguity is precision!</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Todd</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-66579</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-66579</guid>
		<description>&quot;At the time, British decision-makers could only sense intuitively what we know today — this was far more than a conservative defence of the status quo: had Germany succeeded at the Marne in September 1914, which it almost did, the defeat of France and a separate peace would have been followed by a defeat of Russia and, after a pause to build up the German navy, the invasion of Britain from a position of towering strength on the Continent.&quot;

At first, my response was like yours, to say, &quot;You what?&quot;

But on mulling it, I have to ask what Kramer actually means by an &#039;invasion of Britain,&#039; or rather, what kind of invasion? Does he mean a permanent occupation? Or an invasion as knockout blow?

With respect to the latter, there were discussions by various sections of the Admiralty Staff in 1896/97 of a number of Anglo-German war scenarios. Vague plans (maybe &#039;plan&#039; is too strong a word) were made concerning landings along the Thames estuary, the destruction of port facilities, the landing of troops, even the shelling of London from the Thames, all seemingly with a view to knocking Britain out of any conflict by forcing her to early peace terms. These were all predicated on the idea that a limited but swift defeat of part of the Royal Navy would allow the invasion force to nip up the Thames before the bulk of the British fleet could recover and rally.

However, when Schlieffen was consulted, his reply was that it was pointless to entertain limited peace terms. Schlieffen also recognised that the Germans could only ever hope to defeat part of the British navy. His point was that an invading German army would have to land before the bulk of the Royal Navy could respond and &#039;kneel on the chest of [its] prostrate enemy until he begs for mercy, for peace at any price&#039;, that price to be the handing over of the entire British navy which, otherwise, would forever be a threat.

Now, it seems to me that between the lines, Schlieffen was highlighting a Catch-22 situation: in order to neutralise the British navy, it is necessary to invade Britain; but in order to invade Britain, it is necessary to neutralise the British navy. I wonder if he said what he said partly to stop the Admiralty Staff headbangers&#039; rash talk of invading Britain...

Back to Kramer... So perhaps he meant that a victorious Germany would ultimately invade Britain. Well, that&#039;s always a fear, isn&#039;t it? But it&#039;s not the same as it being a foregone conclusion. And a Germanised Europe, with a crippled France eternally blazing with resentment at perfidious Albion&#039;s desertion of her in her hour of need, was a sobering enough prospect for a British cabinet in 1914 without invoking unspecified future invasions.

Personally, I think Kramer&#039;s comment is a rhetorical flourish, a throwaway remark not to be taken seriously. Just because it&#039;s written in a book doesn&#039;t make it true...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;At the time, British decision-makers could only sense intuitively what we know today — this was far more than a conservative defence of the status quo: had Germany succeeded at the Marne in September 1914, which it almost did, the defeat of France and a separate peace would have been followed by a defeat of Russia and, after a pause to build up the German navy, the invasion of Britain from a position of towering strength on the Continent.&#8221;</p>
<p>At first, my response was like yours, to say, &#8220;You what?&#8221;</p>
<p>But on mulling it, I have to ask what Kramer actually means by an &#8216;invasion of Britain,&#8217; or rather, what kind of invasion? Does he mean a permanent occupation? Or an invasion as knockout blow?</p>
<p>With respect to the latter, there were discussions by various sections of the Admiralty Staff in 1896/97 of a number of Anglo-German war scenarios. Vague plans (maybe &#8216;plan&#8217; is too strong a word) were made concerning landings along the Thames estuary, the destruction of port facilities, the landing of troops, even the shelling of London from the Thames, all seemingly with a view to knocking Britain out of any conflict by forcing her to early peace terms. These were all predicated on the idea that a limited but swift defeat of part of the Royal Navy would allow the invasion force to nip up the Thames before the bulk of the British fleet could recover and rally.</p>
<p>However, when Schlieffen was consulted, his reply was that it was pointless to entertain limited peace terms. Schlieffen also recognised that the Germans could only ever hope to defeat part of the British navy. His point was that an invading German army would have to land before the bulk of the Royal Navy could respond and &#8216;kneel on the chest of [its] prostrate enemy until he begs for mercy, for peace at any price&#8217;, that price to be the handing over of the entire British navy which, otherwise, would forever be a threat.</p>
<p>Now, it seems to me that between the lines, Schlieffen was highlighting a Catch-22 situation: in order to neutralise the British navy, it is necessary to invade Britain; but in order to invade Britain, it is necessary to neutralise the British navy. I wonder if he said what he said partly to stop the Admiralty Staff headbangers&#8217; rash talk of invading Britain&#8230;</p>
<p>Back to Kramer&#8230; So perhaps he meant that a victorious Germany would ultimately invade Britain. Well, that&#8217;s always a fear, isn&#8217;t it? But it&#8217;s not the same as it being a foregone conclusion. And a Germanised Europe, with a crippled France eternally blazing with resentment at perfidious Albion&#8217;s desertion of her in her hour of need, was a sobering enough prospect for a British cabinet in 1914 without invoking unspecified future invasions.</p>
<p>Personally, I think Kramer&#8217;s comment is a rhetorical flourish, a throwaway remark not to be taken seriously. Just because it&#8217;s written in a book doesn&#8217;t make it true&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-66450</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 05:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-66450</guid>
		<description>I suppose armies aren&#039;t famous for their rational use of manpower, but presumably they were thought to be serving some purpose at home, or else they&#039;d be released back into the workforce, so they weren&#039;t a drain on resources and, more importantly perhaps, free up other men to join up.

Anyway -- nobody except Mike has commented on Kramer&#039;s &#039;what we know today&#039; (my fault for getting pedantic!) Am I missing something or is it a strange statement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose armies aren&#8217;t famous for their rational use of manpower, but presumably they were thought to be serving some purpose at home, or else they&#8217;d be released back into the workforce, so they weren&#8217;t a drain on resources and, more importantly perhaps, free up other men to join up.</p>
<p>Anyway &#8212; nobody except Mike has commented on Kramer&#8217;s &#8216;what we know today&#8217; (my fault for getting pedantic!) Am I missing something or is it a strange statement?</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-66422</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-66422</guid>
		<description>Whatever home service men were supposed to be for, they might not all have been very effective if they were called on to act. From what I know about the Royal Defence Corps it seems to have been composed of men who weren&#039;t fit for front line combat, but not quite bad enough to be discharged completely. Of course the two regular divisions in 1914 would have been a different matter but things probably went downhill as the war went on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever home service men were supposed to be for, they might not all have been very effective if they were called on to act. From what I know about the Royal Defence Corps it seems to have been composed of men who weren&#8217;t fit for front line combat, but not quite bad enough to be discharged completely. Of course the two regular divisions in 1914 would have been a different matter but things probably went downhill as the war went on.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-66418</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-66418</guid>
		<description>LOL, I&#039;m sure; but in this case they were ordered to do so before leaving on their voyage, to write them down and, upon their return to the US, file them with the Department of the Navy. Which they did. There&#039;s a paper by James R. Reckner about the plans in a conference proceedings: David Stevens and John Reeve, eds. &lt;em&gt;Southern Trident: Strategy, History and the Rise of Australian Naval Power&lt;/em&gt; (Crows Nest: Allen &amp; Unwin, 2001)

So unless the Pentagon has worked out updated warplans since then, the first sign we&#039;ll have of a US attack upon Australia will be their construction of a huge fleet of pre-dreadnoughts ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, I&#8217;m sure; but in this case they were ordered to do so before leaving on their voyage, to write them down and, upon their return to the US, file them with the Department of the Navy. Which they did. There&#8217;s a paper by James R. Reckner about the plans in a conference proceedings: David Stevens and John Reeve, eds. <em>Southern Trident: Strategy, History and the Rise of Australian Naval Power</em> (Crows Nest: Allen &#038; Unwin, 2001)</p>
<p>So unless the Pentagon has worked out updated warplans since then, the first sign we&#8217;ll have of a US attack upon Australia will be their construction of a huge fleet of pre-dreadnoughts &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/comment-page-1/#comment-66417</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/12/14/sealion-1918/#comment-66417</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t that just the sort of thing that naval officers just did unconsciously, like noting the sailing characteristics of a ship?

&quot;There&#039;s the shoal water, and here are the leading marks on the hill. Once we anchor I&#039;ll go ashore to report to the Ambassador. Now, Charles, how would you enfilade that battery on the point?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t that just the sort of thing that naval officers just did unconsciously, like noting the sailing characteristics of a ship?</p>
<p>&#8220;There&#8217;s the shoal water, and here are the leading marks on the hill. Once we anchor I&#8217;ll go ashore to report to the Ambassador. Now, Charles, how would you enfilade that battery on the point?&#8221;</p>
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