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	<title>Comments on: The Dam Busters at the Peckham Multiplex</title>
	<atom:link href="http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/</link>
	<description>Airpower and British society, 1908-1941</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-59007</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-59007</guid>
		<description>Good point -- though on the other hand there were a lot of cluster bombs used in Indochina, dispersing a total of 275 million bomblets according to &lt;a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0218-01.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; (non-scholarly) source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point &#8212; though on the other hand there were a lot of cluster bombs used in Indochina, dispersing a total of 275 million bomblets according to <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0218-01.htm" rel="nofollow">this</a> (non-scholarly) source.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-59003</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-59003</guid>
		<description>WW2 has to win on numbers of bombs, given the number of small incendiary bombs that all sides  - but mainly BC and the Twentieth Air Force - used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WW2 has to win on numbers of bombs, given the number of small incendiary bombs that all sides  - but mainly BC and the Twentieth Air Force - used.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58954</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 19:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58954</guid>
		<description>Yeah, they were the same figures I was working off. 964644 cumulative tons for BC vs 623418 for 8th AF -- the RAF was still ahead by more 50%. 

&lt;a href="http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/EdMoise/limit1.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Another page&lt;/a&gt; on the site you cited makes it clear that the stat does apply specifically to US bombing of Germany. The figure given there for all US bombing in the ETO  is 1.6 or 1.7 megatons. Add in the 1 megaton for BC in Germany and that's 2.6 megatons; which is already pretty close to the tonnages dropped on North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia mentioned in the first link (about 3.2 megatons). Here's &lt;a href="http://www.usaaf.net/surveys/pto/pbs17.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;another stat&lt;/a&gt;: Allied aircraft in the 'Pacific war' dropped  656,400 tons. So WWII has drawn level. BUT, it also becomes apparent that South Vietnam was actually hardest bombed, with another 3 and a bit megatons. So now Indochina is well ahead again, by a factor of two or so. I'm sure Germany, the USSR and Japan all did their part, and there's still the RAF's efforts outside Germany (and the Pacific), but there's probably not 3 megatons' worth. So I'll probably have to concede on the raw tonnage. No data on the actual number of bombs though, so I'm not conceding on that :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, they were the same figures I was working off. 964644 cumulative tons for BC vs 623418 for 8th AF &#8212; the RAF was still ahead by more 50%. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/EdMoise/limit1.html" rel="nofollow">Another page</a> on the site you cited makes it clear that the stat does apply specifically to US bombing of Germany. The figure given there for all US bombing in the ETO  is 1.6 or 1.7 megatons. Add in the 1 megaton for BC in Germany and that&#8217;s 2.6 megatons; which is already pretty close to the tonnages dropped on North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia mentioned in the first link (about 3.2 megatons). Here&#8217;s <a href="http://www.usaaf.net/surveys/pto/pbs17.htm" rel="nofollow">another stat</a>: Allied aircraft in the &#8216;Pacific war&#8217; dropped  656,400 tons. So WWII has drawn level. BUT, it also becomes apparent that South Vietnam was actually hardest bombed, with another 3 and a bit megatons. So now Indochina is well ahead again, by a factor of two or so. I&#8217;m sure Germany, the USSR and Japan all did their part, and there&#8217;s still the RAF&#8217;s efforts outside Germany (and the Pacific), but there&#8217;s probably not 3 megatons&#8217; worth. So I&#8217;ll probably have to concede on the raw tonnage. No data on the actual number of bombs though, so I&#8217;m not conceding on that :P</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Allport</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58949</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Allport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58949</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I should have made clear that that last stat refers to 1945. Cumulatively, Bomber Command remained ahead to the end, though its margin of superiority was falling fast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I should have made clear that that last stat refers to 1945. Cumulatively, Bomber Command remained ahead to the end, though its margin of superiority was falling fast.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Allport</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58946</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Allport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58946</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That stat applies only to US bombing of Germany&lt;/i&gt;

I'm not sure about that - it could just be sloppy wording on the part of the author. Since tonnages are usually given by OOB rather than theater, I suspect it refers to 8th Air Force tonnage rather than tonnage dropped on Germany per se, and so would include the raids on France, etc. But I don't know.

&lt;i&gt;Bomber Command dropped more tons on Germany than did the USAAF, by a substantial margin — though less than a factor of two&lt;/i&gt;

Not true for the whole war, though certainly true up to early 1944. &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#Allied_bombing_statistics_1939.E2.80.9345" rel="nofollow"&gt;Wikipedia&lt;/a&gt; gives Bomber Command 191,540 tons to the 8th Air Force's 188,573. Of course this excludes the 15th Air Force in southern Europe and the other tertiary theaters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That stat applies only to US bombing of Germany</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure about that - it could just be sloppy wording on the part of the author. Since tonnages are usually given by OOB rather than theater, I suspect it refers to 8th Air Force tonnage rather than tonnage dropped on Germany per se, and so would include the raids on France, etc. But I don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p><i>Bomber Command dropped more tons on Germany than did the USAAF, by a substantial margin — though less than a factor of two</i></p>
<p>Not true for the whole war, though certainly true up to early 1944. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#Allied_bombing_statistics_1939.E2.80.9345" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a> gives Bomber Command 191,540 tons to the 8th Air Force&#8217;s 188,573. Of course this excludes the 15th Air Force in southern Europe and the other tertiary theaters.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58932</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58932</guid>
		<description>LOL, I knew somebody would bring that up. I'll admit I didn't check the numbers beforehand, and I won't categorically claim that I was right. But what I was thinking was that that stat applies only to US bombing of Germany: it excludes US bombing of other places (France, Japan, ...), British bombing of anywhere (Bomber Command dropped more tons on Germany than did the USAAF, by a substantial margin -- though less than a factor of two), German bombing of anywhere, Soviet bombing of anywhere etc. I suspect it also only applies to strategic bombing and not tactical bombing. And of course total tonnage doesn't tell you anything about the actual &lt;b&gt;number&lt;/b&gt; of bombs dropped -- it would depend upon the distribution of bomb sizes, though having said that I have no idea how that changed from WWII to Vietnam, if at all.

So it was a gut feeling on my part and I should have said that -- but even if it was more in Vietnam, it's a lot closer than that oft-quoted statistic suggests.

Re Desert Storm, here's &lt;a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_storm.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;one answer&lt;/a&gt;: in absolute terms, only a bit over 60,000 tons, hardly worth mentioning. But at a monthly rate, it's roughly comparable to the United States's WWII and Vietnam/South-East Asia rates. The WWII figures quoted there would appear to be for ALL US aerial forces, and the ratio has dropped to just under 3 to 1. Add in the RAF and everyone else ... well, it won't be too far short. And temporally more intense, certainly, which is surely the criterion for action movie fun :) Though maybe not when you factor in Indo-China's far smaller surface area (ie than the ETO, PTO, etc ...) Hmm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, I knew somebody would bring that up. I&#8217;ll admit I didn&#8217;t check the numbers beforehand, and I won&#8217;t categorically claim that I was right. But what I was thinking was that that stat applies only to US bombing of Germany: it excludes US bombing of other places (France, Japan, &#8230;), British bombing of anywhere (Bomber Command dropped more tons on Germany than did the USAAF, by a substantial margin &#8212; though less than a factor of two), German bombing of anywhere, Soviet bombing of anywhere etc. I suspect it also only applies to strategic bombing and not tactical bombing. And of course total tonnage doesn&#8217;t tell you anything about the actual <b>number</b> of bombs dropped &#8212; it would depend upon the distribution of bomb sizes, though having said that I have no idea how that changed from WWII to Vietnam, if at all.</p>
<p>So it was a gut feeling on my part and I should have said that &#8212; but even if it was more in Vietnam, it&#8217;s a lot closer than that oft-quoted statistic suggests.</p>
<p>Re Desert Storm, here&#8217;s <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_storm.htm" rel="nofollow">one answer</a>: in absolute terms, only a bit over 60,000 tons, hardly worth mentioning. But at a monthly rate, it&#8217;s roughly comparable to the United States&#8217;s WWII and Vietnam/South-East Asia rates. The WWII figures quoted there would appear to be for ALL US aerial forces, and the ratio has dropped to just under 3 to 1. Add in the RAF and everyone else &#8230; well, it won&#8217;t be too far short. And temporally more intense, certainly, which is surely the criterion for action movie fun :) Though maybe not when you factor in Indo-China&#8217;s far smaller surface area (ie than the ETO, PTO, etc &#8230;) Hmm.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Allport</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58929</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Allport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58929</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;WWII must have seen more bombs used than any other war in history&lt;/i&gt;

Really? Sorry to get all serious and OT, but I'm curious as to whether that's true. I suppose it all depends on what one means by 'all bombs,' but surely in terms of equivalent-TNT recent wars have now surpassed WWII. According to &lt;a href="http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/EdMoise/limit7.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;this site&lt;/a&gt;, the Americans dropped &lt;i&gt;five times&lt;/i&gt; the tonnage of bombs on Laos, Cambodia and North Vietnam from 1965-1973 than they did on Germany from 1942-5. Anyone know the figures for, say, Desert Storm?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>WWII must have seen more bombs used than any other war in history</i></p>
<p>Really? Sorry to get all serious and OT, but I&#8217;m curious as to whether that&#8217;s true. I suppose it all depends on what one means by &#8216;all bombs,&#8217; but surely in terms of equivalent-TNT recent wars have now surpassed WWII. According to <a href="http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/EdMoise/limit7.html" rel="nofollow">this site</a>, the Americans dropped <i>five times</i> the tonnage of bombs on Laos, Cambodia and North Vietnam from 1965-1973 than they did on Germany from 1942-5. Anyone know the figures for, say, Desert Storm?</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Keen</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58898</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Keen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 08:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58898</guid>
		<description>Actually, having seen the ads in the papers, I've changed my mind, and think there's a good chance that it could be actually projected from film (albeit off a digitally remastered print).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, having seen the ads in the papers, I&#8217;ve changed my mind, and think there&#8217;s a good chance that it could be actually projected from film (albeit off a digitally remastered print).</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Holman</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58833</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Holman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58833</guid>
		<description>Sharon:

I've long wanted to see &lt;em&gt;It Happened Here&lt;/em&gt;, as it happens. But if 'Bombs are fun', and since WWII must have seen more bombs used than any other war in history, ergo WWII movies should be fun too. It's only logical ... :P

There is a bit more romance in &lt;em&gt;Enigma&lt;/em&gt; than your average war movie, but that's not why I like it. Good cast, good script (Tom Stoppard from a Robert Harris novel), good period feel and an interesting subject which hasn't been filmed to death. OK; there are some major rewrites of history going on (the main character is obviously based on Alan Turing, but is heterosexual so that mainstream audiences don't go ewww) and there aren't actually any explosions (other than a few gratuitous bits with U-boats), but it's probably my favourite WWII film of the past decade. (Though I haven't seen Eastwood's latest yet.)

Jack:

Ouch. I can see why such a code of etiquette would have evolved ... otherwise you'd have half the cast strangled to death and the other half in jail!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sharon:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve long wanted to see <em>It Happened Here</em>, as it happens. But if &#8216;Bombs are fun&#8217;, and since WWII must have seen more bombs used than any other war in history, ergo WWII movies should be fun too. It&#8217;s only logical &#8230; :P</p>
<p>There is a bit more romance in <em>Enigma</em> than your average war movie, but that&#8217;s not why I like it. Good cast, good script (Tom Stoppard from a Robert Harris novel), good period feel and an interesting subject which hasn&#8217;t been filmed to death. OK; there are some major rewrites of history going on (the main character is obviously based on Alan Turing, but is heterosexual so that mainstream audiences don&#8217;t go ewww) and there aren&#8217;t actually any explosions (other than a few gratuitous bits with U-boats), but it&#8217;s probably my favourite WWII film of the past decade. (Though I haven&#8217;t seen Eastwood&#8217;s latest yet.)</p>
<p>Jack:</p>
<p>Ouch. I can see why such a code of etiquette would have evolved &#8230; otherwise you&#8217;d have half the cast strangled to death and the other half in jail!</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58765</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://airminded.org/2007/08/30/the-dam-busters-at-the-peckham-multiplex/#comment-58765</guid>
		<description>First rule of acting etiquette: never, ever give another actor notes (unless they specifically ask you for them), no matter how crap they may be (that does happen) or how feeble the director may be (that happens frequently).  “You just have to work round them, dear boy…”  But Gareth Thomas (of ‘Blake’s 7’ fame) did once blurt out when I was in full flow in rehearsals “you’re not really going to play that scene like that, are you?”  I was devastated.  Fortunately, he was rather embarrassed that it had slipped out and did apologize later.  Then I could ask him ‘how would you play it, because the other actor’s giving me nothing, the director’s not helping, and I don’t know what to do?’  And he told me.  And it worked (at least a wee bit better).  Now that’s ‘generosity’ amongst actors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First rule of acting etiquette: never, ever give another actor notes (unless they specifically ask you for them), no matter how crap they may be (that does happen) or how feeble the director may be (that happens frequently).  “You just have to work round them, dear boy…”  But Gareth Thomas (of ‘Blake’s 7’ fame) did once blurt out when I was in full flow in rehearsals “you’re not really going to play that scene like that, are you?”  I was devastated.  Fortunately, he was rather embarrassed that it had slipped out and did apologize later.  Then I could ask him ‘how would you play it, because the other actor’s giving me nothing, the director’s not helping, and I don’t know what to do?’  And he told me.  And it worked (at least a wee bit better).  Now that’s ‘generosity’ amongst actors.</p>
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