Comments on: The Fire http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/ Airpower and British society, 1908-1941 Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:33:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-46356 Brett Holman Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:43:30 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-46356 Thanks, Barbara. It's very interesting to read a German perspective on the matter. Personally I can't see anything wrong with Germans recognising the extent of their loss (human and cultural) due to bombing, and questioning whether it was effective or justified -- at long as it doesn't obscure the reasons why they were being bombed in the first place. The what-if question is interesting. Civilian morale held up surprisingly well under prolonged aerial bombardment, but there must have come a point when, combined with the military reverses in the east and then the west, stoicism turned into weariness. (Some cities were bombed a couple of hundred times or more.) So there were likely intangible effects like that, but without the defeats of German armies in the field they wouldn't have amounted to much. Thanks, Barbara. It’s very interesting to read a German perspective on the matter. Personally I can’t see anything wrong with Germans recognising the extent of their loss (human and cultural) due to bombing, and questioning whether it was effective or justified — at long as it doesn’t obscure the reasons why they were being bombed in the first place.

The what-if question is interesting. Civilian morale held up surprisingly well under prolonged aerial bombardment, but there must have come a point when, combined with the military reverses in the east and then the west, stoicism turned into weariness. (Some cities were bombed a couple of hundred times or more.) So there were likely intangible effects like that, but without the defeats of German armies in the field they wouldn’t have amounted to much.

]]> By: Investigations of a Dog » Military History Carnival #1 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-45933 Investigations of a Dog » Military History Carnival #1 Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:08:37 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-45933 [...] Holman at Airminded and Dan Todman at Trench Fever recently pushed the boundaries of history blogging with their [...] [...] Holman at Airminded and Dan Todman at Trench Fever recently pushed the boundaries of history blogging with their [...]

]]> By: barbarashm http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-45268 barbarashm Sat, 07 Apr 2007 12:22:56 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-45268 thanks for a great review, but as always I find one view missing the What-If the bombing had not worn out the civilians in the big cities? and the stories of horror the fugitives from the cities brought to the countryside. how many of the Allied soldiers would have had to die because of crazed insurgents? cruel as it was, to get us as worn out and fed up with the war as possible prior to invading was the one sensible thing to do and it does not matter whether enough military installations were hit. it certainly was not "nice" but it boils down to whose life is worth more: that of a civilian enemy or that of your own soldier and as war is never nice and my people started it, it is only justified that we had to pay the price, children included as far as I know the Wehrmacht were never in doubt! also having been born in 1942 I certainly am grateful for anything that forced my elders to keep quiet and let me grow up and learn life under Allied supervision this ever growing passion (and competition) of my countrymen for claiming victimhood is disgusting, tactless and every other name you want to call it I am grateful to every British bomber pilot who did his job because it certainly influenced history so that I could have the wonderful life I had. Imagine the alternative, of having had to live it under Nazi-Rule ... I remember when Friedrich's book came out in Germany I read that he had drawn heavily on Georg Wolfgang Schramm "Bomben auf Nürnberg - Luftangriffe 1940-1945" a detailed account of all the air raids on that city and a very sober matter-of-fact account - somehow I seem to remember that he did not give Schramm his due thanks for a great review, but as always I find one view missing

the What-If the bombing had not worn out the civilians in the big cities? and the stories of horror the fugitives from the cities brought to the countryside.

how many of the Allied soldiers would have had to die because of crazed insurgents?

cruel as it was, to get us as worn out and fed up with the war as possible prior to invading was the one sensible thing to do and it does not matter whether enough military installations were hit.

it certainly was not “nice” but it boils down to whose life is worth more: that of a civilian enemy or that of your own soldier and as war is never nice and my people started it, it is only justified that we had to pay the price, children included
as far as I know the Wehrmacht were never in doubt!

also having been born in 1942 I certainly am grateful for anything that forced my elders to keep quiet and let me grow up and learn life under Allied supervision

this ever growing passion (and competition) of my countrymen for claiming victimhood is disgusting, tactless and every other name you want to call it

I am grateful to every British bomber pilot who did his job because it certainly influenced history so that I could have the wonderful life I had. Imagine the alternative, of having had to live it under Nazi-Rule …

I remember when Friedrich’s book came out in Germany I read that he had drawn heavily on Georg Wolfgang Schramm “Bomben auf Nürnberg - Luftangriffe 1940-1945″ a detailed account of all the air raids on that city and a very sober matter-of-fact account - somehow I seem to remember that he did not give Schramm his due

]]> By: Tapera » reseñas http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-43512 Tapera » reseñas Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:31:32 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-43512 [...] perfil académico con el que algunos blogs de historia están pensando la tribu. La otra noticia es la reseña a dúo, en colaboración, dialogada, contrapunteada que armó la gente de Trench Fever y Airminded sobre el libro de Jörg Friedrich, The Fire: The [...] [...] perfil académico con el que algunos blogs de historia están pensando la tribu. La otra noticia es la reseña a dúo, en colaboración, dialogada, contrapunteada que armó la gente de Trench Fever y Airminded sobre el libro de Jörg Friedrich, The Fire: The [...]

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-43274 Brett Holman Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:51:30 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-43274 Thanks, Scott! As Dan says, it was a fair bit of work, but it worked well, I think. I'd be willing to do more but it would depend upon the book, for one thing. Of course, there's nothing to stop others from trying out this style of review. Alan: I don't know that Harris got to address the public/journalists much, or if he did, he somehow managed to censor himself (Connelly has gone back to the library, must get my own copy). When Harris wanted to complain about the BBC's squeamishness on the issue of bombing civilians, he wrote not to the BBC itself, or to a newspaper, but to his superior (see <a href="http://airminded.org/2006/11/12/me-on-orac-on-dawkins-on-harris/" rel="nofollow">here</a>). And if he had been outspoken to the press, it probably would have been suppressed by the censors, I suppose. Thanks, Scott! As Dan says, it was a fair bit of work, but it worked well, I think. I’d be willing to do more but it would depend upon the book, for one thing. Of course, there’s nothing to stop others from trying out this style of review.

Alan:

I don’t know that Harris got to address the public/journalists much, or if he did, he somehow managed to censor himself (Connelly has gone back to the library, must get my own copy). When Harris wanted to complain about the BBC’s squeamishness on the issue of bombing civilians, he wrote not to the BBC itself, or to a newspaper, but to his superior (see here). And if he had been outspoken to the press, it probably would have been suppressed by the censors, I suppose.

]]> By: Alan Allport http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-43253 Alan Allport Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:48:01 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-43253 <i>I suppose an interesting vector for analysis would be the degree to which public perception was based on reporting of British bombing versus experience of German bombing.</i> I was flicking through Calder's <i>The People's War</i> last night and I noticed a late-war poll: apparently three in four Britons was still emphatic that Bomber Command strictly limited its attacks to military targets, and only one in ten had a more accurate view of the campaign. Harris' frank talk doesn't seem to have impinged much on the public mind ... I suppose an interesting vector for analysis would be the degree to which public perception was based on reporting of British bombing versus experience of German bombing.

I was flicking through Calder’s The People’s War last night and I noticed a late-war poll: apparently three in four Britons was still emphatic that Bomber Command strictly limited its attacks to military targets, and only one in ten had a more accurate view of the campaign. Harris’ frank talk doesn’t seem to have impinged much on the public mind …

]]> By: Dan Todman http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-43245 Dan Todman Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:58:38 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-43245 Gavin, I can only apologise - in all seriousness - to all nihilists for my colloquial usage. That was an inexact phrase, which I should have picked up. Thinking about it, 'philistinism' might have been better (arms himself with jawbone of ass and prepares for barrage of invective from Philistines) On the subject of British attitudes, I suppose an interesting vector for analysis would be the degree to which public perception was based on reporting of British bombing versus experience of German bombing. On the format: I'm glad it worked out - I think Brett will agree that it was quite a lot of work (in some ways more than a single author review). I can see it as a useful way to entice technically recalcitrant colleagues into the blogosphere. Gavin, I can only apologise - in all seriousness - to all nihilists for my colloquial usage. That was an inexact phrase, which I should have picked up. Thinking about it, ‘philistinism’ might have been better (arms himself with jawbone of ass and prepares for barrage of invective from Philistines)
On the subject of British attitudes, I suppose an interesting vector for analysis would be the degree to which public perception was based on reporting of British bombing versus experience of German bombing.
On the format: I’m glad it worked out - I think Brett will agree that it was quite a lot of work (in some ways more than a single author review). I can see it as a useful way to entice technically recalcitrant colleagues into the blogosphere.

]]> By: Scott W. Palmer http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-42519 Scott W. Palmer Sat, 24 Mar 2007 04:19:45 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-42519 Brett, Echoing Jonathan Dresner's comment, I found the format of the review to be both engaging and effective. Kudos to Dan for coming up with the idea, and to the both of you for pulling it off so well. I'll be curious to see if (or, better, when) it's repeated. Brett,

Echoing Jonathan Dresner’s comment, I found the format of the review to be both engaging and effective. Kudos to Dan for coming up with the idea, and to the both of you for pulling it off so well. I’ll be curious to see if (or, better, when) it’s repeated.

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-42416 Brett Holman Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:27:28 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-42416 Thanks Jonathan -- the format was Dan's idea, so all praise on that score should be directed to him! Thanks Jonathan — the format was Dan’s idea, so all praise on that score should be directed to him!

]]> By: Jonathan Dresner http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-42326 Jonathan Dresner Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:22:35 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/03/22/the-fire/#comment-42326 By the way, this is a fantastic format for a review: very nicely done! By the way, this is a fantastic format for a review: very nicely done!

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