Comments on: Library of the absurd http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/ Airpower and British society, 1908-1941 Sun, 12 Oct 2008 05:15:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Jack McGowan http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37716 Jack McGowan Tue, 06 Feb 2007 01:00:43 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37716 Coda, in the name of fair representation - I actually made one of my rare visits to the BL on Saturday and was extremely pleasantly surprised: relatively few undergrads to kick out of the way; empty seat located immediately; books waiting; _three _ members of staff _smilling_ and all eager to help me! This is unlike anything I've experienced before. I've resolved that maybe I should try it more often. I'm going back tomorrow. This could become a habit. Coda, in the name of fair representation - I actually made one of my rare visits to the BL on Saturday and was extremely pleasantly surprised: relatively few undergrads to kick out of the way; empty seat located immediately; books waiting; _three _ members of staff _smilling_ and all eager to help me!

This is unlike anything I’ve experienced before. I’ve resolved that maybe I should try it more often. I’m going back tomorrow. This could become a habit.

]]> By: Alan Allport http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37115 Alan Allport Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:29:15 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37115 <i>I’ve always found BL staff unfriendly and intimidating and PRO staff friendly and helpful, but maybe that’s just me.</i> I've had a mixture of good and bad experiences at both. I wouldn't generalize about institutional personality from a few personal incidents. I’ve always found BL staff unfriendly and intimidating and PRO staff friendly and helpful, but maybe that’s just me.

I’ve had a mixture of good and bad experiences at both. I wouldn’t generalize about institutional personality from a few personal incidents.

]]> By: Reto http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37105 Reto Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:07:04 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37105 I agree that it might just be a publicity stunt to prevent future cuts - and let's hope it is. However, the whole saga looks much more like yet another manifestation of the present government's philistinism. In new labour minds "Education, education, education" is all too often equated with "science, technology and business studies" or anything that will get people into jobs as quickly as possible. And obviously you don't need the BL to achieve such an objective. Likewise, in new labour speak, "knowledge" simply means a skill that is useful in economic life and therefore contributes to the public good (very) narrowly defined - again, much of the more serious schoarship going on in an institution like the BL is not going to directly contribute to this. Depressing really, but then Blair will soon be gone and all will be much better .... maybe. I agree that it might just be a publicity stunt to prevent future cuts - and let’s hope it is. However, the whole saga looks much more like yet another manifestation of the present government’s philistinism. In new labour minds “Education, education, education” is all too often equated with “science, technology and business studies” or anything that will get people into jobs as quickly as possible. And obviously you don’t need the BL to achieve such an objective. Likewise, in new labour speak, “knowledge” simply means a skill that is useful in economic life and therefore contributes to the public good (very) narrowly defined - again, much of the more serious schoarship going on in an institution like the BL is not going to directly contribute to this.

Depressing really, but then Blair will soon be gone and all will be much better …. maybe.

]]> By: Gavin Robinson http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37102 Gavin Robinson Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:56:28 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37102 The PRO makes you sign a copyright form, and there are draconian restrictions on what you can actually do with the photos, even if the documents are out of copyright, but it obviously does help that most of their stuff is covered by Crown Copyright and that it's mostly masses of banal administrative records. I suppose things are different for the BL because they have books as well as manuscripts (although I think the PRO lets you use cameras in the library as long as you stick to fair use, same as with the photocopiers) and they have more private collections of manuscripts relating to famous people. On the other hand, some of the BL MSS that I'm most interested in are pretty much the same kind of records that I've looked at in the PRO, created by the same organisations, and presumably also in the public domain, Crown/Parliamentary copyright having expired 125 years after creation. I've always found BL staff unfriendly and intimidating and PRO staff friendly and helpful, but maybe that's just me. The Liddle Archive at Leeds is even better for cool stuff. I'll never forget being allowed to hold the German chainmail armour (it was damn heavy!). That was pre-Dunblane, so I'm not sure if they're allowed real guns any more. It would be a shame if they've had to deactivate them or get rid of them. The PRO makes you sign a copyright form, and there are draconian restrictions on what you can actually do with the photos, even if the documents are out of copyright, but it obviously does help that most of their stuff is covered by Crown Copyright and that it’s mostly masses of banal administrative records. I suppose things are different for the BL because they have books as well as manuscripts (although I think the PRO lets you use cameras in the library as long as you stick to fair use, same as with the photocopiers) and they have more private collections of manuscripts relating to famous people. On the other hand, some of the BL MSS that I’m most interested in are pretty much the same kind of records that I’ve looked at in the PRO, created by the same organisations, and presumably also in the public domain, Crown/Parliamentary copyright having expired 125 years after creation.

I’ve always found BL staff unfriendly and intimidating and PRO staff friendly and helpful, but maybe that’s just me.

The Liddle Archive at Leeds is even better for cool stuff. I’ll never forget being allowed to hold the German chainmail armour (it was damn heavy!). That was pre-Dunblane, so I’m not sure if they’re allowed real guns any more. It would be a shame if they’ve had to deactivate them or get rid of them.

]]> By: Chris Williams http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37096 Chris Williams Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:09:19 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37096 I'm pretty happy with the service at St Pancras. Beats Colindale, obviously, but there's not much to choose between it and the PRO, in my opinion. The PRO has cooler stuff (Once upon a time a couple of bullets rolled out of a document I was looking at. Apparently someone was once confronted by a Luger...) but it's out in the sticks, and the BL's building is bananas good. Perhaps too good. It certainly cost enough, but the Biblioteque Nationale pips it to the "1990s central library white elephant" prize. I’m pretty happy with the service at St Pancras. Beats Colindale, obviously, but there’s not much to choose between it and the PRO, in my opinion. The PRO has cooler stuff (Once upon a time a couple of bullets rolled out of a document I was looking at. Apparently someone was once confronted by a Luger…) but it’s out in the sticks, and the BL’s building is bananas good. Perhaps too good. It certainly cost enough, but the Biblioteque Nationale pips it to the “1990s central library white elephant” prize.

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37093 Brett Holman Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:58:52 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37093 How depressing. If the BL is as bad as all that, I may have to switch to doing a PhD on New Zealand history ... Personally I don't care who has or manages the stuff in the BL, as long as it's maintained and accessible. That's the real point at issue here, it seems to me. Maybe it could be better managed, but at least it exists. For the moment. But certainly I agree that the library should be there to be used, not gawked at! I knew they didn't allow digital cameras, but I assumed this was because, as a library, they don't actually own the copyrights to most of the stuff they hold? Whereas at a regular archive that's generally not the case. Even the uni library here is fussy about using digital cameras in the reading room -- they wanted me to fill out the standard form used for requesting photocopies, and write down how many pages I photographed. Or it could just be that the librarian on the desk that day was not au fait with the latest technologies ... How depressing. If the BL is as bad as all that, I may have to switch to doing a PhD on New Zealand history …

Personally I don’t care who has or manages the stuff in the BL, as long as it’s maintained and accessible. That’s the real point at issue here, it seems to me. Maybe it could be better managed, but at least it exists. For the moment. But certainly I agree that the library should be there to be used, not gawked at!

I knew they didn’t allow digital cameras, but I assumed this was because, as a library, they don’t actually own the copyrights to most of the stuff they hold? Whereas at a regular archive that’s generally not the case. Even the uni library here is fussy about using digital cameras in the reading room — they wanted me to fill out the standard form used for requesting photocopies, and write down how many pages I photographed. Or it could just be that the librarian on the desk that day was not au fait with the latest technologies …

]]> By: Jack McGowan http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37085 Jack McGowan Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:42:52 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37085 Good point re digital photos. Can't think of any other major archive which doesn't allow them by now. Indeed, one of my main gripes with Colindale is exceptional cost of very poor quality photocopies - and even worse quality copies from microfilm. PRO is very efficient. Full of retired people researching 'family history' of course, but not, I think, heaving with undergrads (unless they are looking for something very specific.) Lest anyone argues 'but how will undergrads learn and progress unless given access to The Nation's Treasures at the BL'?' - give them a day pass for a specific search, and no more. And, contrary though I sometimes am, isn't deification of an institution which supposedly houses The Nation's Treasures the very problem? It's a resource: it should be a working archive for working researchers to use, not a cathedral, or a essential sight to be 'done' by Japanese or US tourists who think it's where Marx wrote (when they actually want to be at the British Museum). Enough with the whole 'symbol of nationhood' sub-text which permeates the place. First sign of intellectual death. Here endeth rant. :) Good point re digital photos. Can’t think of any other major archive which doesn’t allow them by now. Indeed, one of my main gripes with Colindale is exceptional cost of very poor quality photocopies - and even worse quality copies from microfilm.

PRO is very efficient. Full of retired people researching ‘family history’ of course, but not, I think, heaving with undergrads (unless they are looking for something very specific.) Lest anyone argues ‘but how will undergrads learn and progress unless given access to The Nation’s Treasures at the BL’?’ - give them a day pass for a specific search, and no more.

And, contrary though I sometimes am, isn’t deification of an institution which supposedly houses The Nation’s Treasures the very problem? It’s a resource: it should be a working archive for working researchers to use, not a cathedral, or a essential sight to be ‘done’ by Japanese or US tourists who think it’s where Marx wrote (when they actually want to be at the British Museum). Enough with the whole ’symbol of nationhood’ sub-text which permeates the place. First sign of intellectual death.

Here endeth rant. :)

]]> By: Gavin Robinson http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37074 Gavin Robinson Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:15:01 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37074 I refuse to feel any pity for the British Library until they lift their ban on digital cameras. Copying manuscripts out by hand is just so last century! I can't help wondering why there's such a difference between the BL and the PRO. Obviously there's a difference the nature of their collections, but that doesn't entirely explain why the underfunded and mismanaged BL lurches from crisis to crisis while the PRO, while not perfect, is way ahead of any other archive or library I've ever been to. I refuse to feel any pity for the British Library until they lift their ban on digital cameras. Copying manuscripts out by hand is just so last century!

I can’t help wondering why there’s such a difference between the BL and the PRO. Obviously there’s a difference the nature of their collections, but that doesn’t entirely explain why the underfunded and mismanaged BL lurches from crisis to crisis while the PRO, while not perfect, is way ahead of any other archive or library I’ve ever been to.

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37044 Brett Holman Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:38:16 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-37044 Undergrads! Pah! You should count yourselves lucky that the BL isn't infested with <em>high school students</em>, like <a href="http://airminded.org/2006/04/17/the-slv/" rel="nofollow">the SLV</a> here is. Don't they have anywhere else not to study in? Mind you, it does give me the chance to mentally look down my nose at them, as I push a trolley-load of dusty old journals in between the clusters of teenagers fiddling with their mobile phones -- call yourselves students? <em>I'm</em> a proper scholar, I am. Real serious, like. Undergrads! Pah! You should count yourselves lucky that the BL isn’t infested with high school students, like the SLV here is. Don’t they have anywhere else not to study in? Mind you, it does give me the chance to mentally look down my nose at them, as I push a trolley-load of dusty old journals in between the clusters of teenagers fiddling with their mobile phones — call yourselves students? I’m a proper scholar, I am. Real serious, like.

]]> By: Jack McGowan http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-36985 Jack McGowan Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:28:32 +0000 http://airminded.org/2007/01/29/library-of-the-absurd/#comment-36985 I've also never understood why Colindale doesn't hold 'Time Out' - essential for my period and type of work. But the very helpful Westminster Reference Library will bring you bound, printed copies at any time. No membership required: no grim trip on Northern Line. But I agree about OU students and the BL, Chris. They should also get free, automatic (reference) access all year round to every UK University Library - not least because they have to work much harder to juggle all commitments and are usually, as a result, much more 'well-rounded' graduates.... Jack McGowan BA (Open University) I’ve also never understood why Colindale doesn’t hold ‘Time Out’ - essential for my period and type of work. But the very helpful Westminster Reference Library will bring you bound, printed copies at any time. No membership required: no grim trip on Northern Line.

But I agree about OU students and the BL, Chris. They should also get free, automatic (reference) access all year round to every UK University Library - not least because they have to work much harder to juggle all commitments and are usually, as a result, much more ‘well-rounded’ graduates….

Jack McGowan
BA (Open University)

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