Comments on: Interwar use of chemical weapons http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons Airpower and British society, 1908-1941 Wed, 23 May 2012 10:08:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: JDK http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-153294 JDK Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:14:45 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-153294 Just a note to say what a fascinating area, and illustrating how much the 'anglosphere' can remain totally oblivious of parallel developments in history. It would be good to hear more details / examples of this other 'air control' work. Thanks! Just a note to say what a fascinating area, and illustrating how much the 'anglosphere' can remain totally oblivious of parallel developments in history.

It would be good to hear more details / examples of this other 'air control' work.

Thanks!

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-153181 Brett Holman Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:22:28 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-153181 No problem, it is quite amazing stuff. No problem, it is quite amazing stuff.

]]> By: Ruy Aballe http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-153130 Ruy Aballe Wed, 10 Nov 2010 23:07:53 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-153130 No, I hadn't! Thanks so much for reminding me of it! As a matter of fact, I noticed it before, while browsing through your "air control" archives but I hadn't had time to actually watch it. Amazing footage and some quite candid recollections, too... This feature was aired 30 years and it shows! Had it been recorded today, we could expect Group Cap. R. Lister to employ a less "colourful" language in the interview. And also some omissions, namely the part about bombing villages... No, I hadn't! Thanks so much for reminding me of it! As a matter of fact, I noticed it before, while browsing through your "air control" archives but I hadn't had time to actually watch it. Amazing footage and some quite candid recollections, too... This feature was aired 30 years and it shows! Had it been recorded today, we could expect Group Cap. R. Lister to employ a less "colourful" language in the interview. And also some omissions, namely the part about bombing villages...

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-152683 Brett Holman Sat, 06 Nov 2010 05:28:07 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-152683 That is interesting about strafing; it's not something the RAF would have been keen to advertise, I think. Have you seen <a href="http://airminded.org/2010/04/20/wings-over-waziristan/" rel="nofollow">this film</a> of Audaxes in the Waziristan campaign? There's a mention of strafing in that. That is interesting about strafing; it's not something the RAF would have been keen to advertise, I think. Have you seen this film of Audaxes in the Waziristan campaign? There's a mention of strafing in that.

]]> By: Ruy Aballe http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-152569 Ruy Aballe Wed, 03 Nov 2010 14:30:40 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-152569 founding* Sorry, "finding their way" ... founding*
Sorry, "finding their way" ...

]]> By: Ruy Aballe http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-152557 Ruy Aballe Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:09:32 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-152557 Yes, it was: it worked as a sort of avant la lettre COIN scenario, where they could test ground attack tactics. Interestingly, strafing seems to have been quite the norm (Bowyer also mentions this in relation to British operations in Mesopotamia and the NWFP), not just with the synchronised guns but also with observers' ones (most Soviet two seaters had twin gun mounts). I heard Mr. Kotelnikov was contemplating the idea of doing a book on Soviet air control and anti-guerrilla operations in the interwar era. Anyway, some of the articles penned by him and M. Maslov have been translated into French in the last two years or so, founding their way into periodicals like "Le Fana de l'Aviation" and "Avions". The most interesting - and perhaps the closest to the subject being discussed - is a study of VVS operations during the Sino-Soviet border conflict of 1929, originally published in "Aviamaster". The French translation was published this year and includes a few new photos the author has found in the meantime. Fascinating stuff! Yes, it was: it worked as a sort of avant la lettre COIN scenario, where they could test ground attack tactics. Interestingly, strafing seems to have been quite the norm (Bowyer also mentions this in relation to British operations in Mesopotamia and the NWFP), not just with the synchronised guns but also with observers' ones (most Soviet two seaters had twin gun mounts).

I heard Mr. Kotelnikov was contemplating the idea of doing a book on Soviet air control and anti-guerrilla operations in the interwar era. Anyway, some of the articles penned by him and M. Maslov have been translated into French in the last two years or so, founding their way into periodicals like "Le Fana de l'Aviation" and "Avions".

The most interesting - and perhaps the closest to the subject being discussed - is a study of VVS operations during the Sino-Soviet border conflict of 1929, originally published in "Aviamaster". The French translation was published this year and includes a few new photos the author has found in the meantime. Fascinating stuff!

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-152541 Brett Holman Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:14:42 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-152541 That's okay, I can't read them anyway! Seems like it was an important arena for the Soviets to test new aircraft and doctrine, much like the war in Spain was the following decade. That's okay, I can't read them anyway! Seems like it was an important arena for the Soviets to test new aircraft and doctrine, much like the war in Spain was the following decade.

]]> By: Ruy Aballe http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-152426 Ruy Aballe Mon, 01 Nov 2010 16:08:51 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-152426 Sorry, it seems the blog message system does not support Cyrillic fonts! Sorry, it seems the blog message system does not support Cyrillic fonts!

]]> By: Ruy Aballe http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-152425 Ruy Aballe Mon, 01 Nov 2010 16:06:29 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-152425 Hi again Brett, Just found the article on Soviet air control operations. It was published in "Aviamaster", issues 4 and 5/2006, by Vladimir Kotelnikov as a large two-part feature: "??????? ?????? ??????????: ????????? ??????? ? ?????? ? ????????????" ("Red Stars over Turkestan: Soviet aviation in combat against the «basmachi»"). The text details operations performed from 1920 to 1939, but more than 85% of it revolves around the more or less open war fought against muslim insurgents between the mid-1920s and the early 1930s. From 1930/31 onwards, the operations (by then reduced to "muscled" air and land policing) dwindled in scale and became more and more the responsability of the OGPU and from 1934, of the NKVD which possessed border guard aviation units of their own. I will have to re-read the text as I don't recall any mention to chemical weapons. The use of large quantities of conventional ordenance is well attested, however, and reminds me of some figures mentioned by Chaz Bowyer. I will post more details soon. Hi again Brett,
Just found the article on Soviet air control operations. It was published in "Aviamaster", issues 4 and 5/2006, by Vladimir Kotelnikov as a large two-part feature: "??????? ?????? ??????????: ????????? ??????? ? ?????? ? ????????????" ("Red Stars over Turkestan: Soviet aviation in combat against the «basmachi»"). The text details operations performed from 1920 to 1939, but more than 85% of it revolves around the more or less open war fought against muslim insurgents between the mid-1920s and the early 1930s. From 1930/31 onwards, the operations (by then reduced to "muscled" air and land policing) dwindled in scale and became more and more the responsability of the OGPU and from 1934, of the NKVD which possessed border guard aviation units of their own. I will have to re-read the text as I don't recall any mention to chemical weapons. The use of large quantities of conventional ordenance is well attested, however, and reminds me of some figures mentioned by Chaz Bowyer.
I will post more details soon.

]]> By: Ruy Aballe http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-152204 Ruy Aballe Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:05:26 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/10/13/interwar-use-of-chemical-weapons/#comment-152204 No problem! Yes, indeed... your point is very true. And such imprecision seems to have worked well in the Spanish case, at least judging from Cisneros' own recollections. Unfortunately, I do not know any specific reference on the similar air control missions performed by the French in Morocco around the same period, but I have a couple of bibliographic notes on air control and colonial air warfare in a separate Word file. Unfortunately, I don't have it at hand right now, but I'll be able to access it over the weekend and will post the titles. The Spanish Army followed gas usage during the Great War with great interest and the conflict in the Rif provided the right excuse to try the new weapon. I agree that the lack of actual experience with gas, coupled with a lack of direct public awareness of its horrible effects might explain the readiness to employ it. Of the two books you mention, I read only Towle's "Pilots and Rebels" whose broader chronological approach somehow places it in a category of its own. I haven't managed yet to track down a copy of Omissi's "Air Power and Colonial Control", but I intend to do so soon. In the meantime, I will dig the article about Soviet air control vs. muslim guerrillas in Central Asia. Witten by one of the foremost Russian experts - either M. Maslov or V. Kotelnikov - on interwar Soviet aviation, it was published a few years ago in the aviation history periodical "Aviamaster" (I have my "Aviamaster" collection archived in card boxes - will check it also next Saturday). The variety of aircraft employed in combat, support and liasion roles was amazing. Besides from the ubiquous Polikarpov R-1 (a local hybrid/derivative of the DH.4/DH.9 delivered from 1923 onwards), it included modern all-metal, licence-made Junkers designs and the Tupolev R-3. The Soviets also started their experiments with armoured aircraft then. I absolutely agree with what you wrote about a multinational study of air control between the wars. This could be an interesting editorial project for a brave enough small group (and also for an equally brave publisher). No problem! Yes, indeed... your point is very true. And such imprecision seems to have worked well in the Spanish case, at least judging from Cisneros' own recollections. Unfortunately, I do not know any specific reference on the similar air control missions performed by the French in Morocco around the same period, but I have a couple of bibliographic notes on air control and colonial air warfare in a separate Word file. Unfortunately, I don't have it at hand right now, but I'll be able to access it over the weekend and will post the titles.

The Spanish Army followed gas usage during the Great War with great interest and the conflict in the Rif provided the right excuse to try the new weapon. I agree that the lack of actual experience with gas, coupled with a lack of direct public awareness of its horrible effects might explain the readiness to employ it.

Of the two books you mention, I read only Towle's "Pilots and Rebels" whose broader chronological approach somehow places it in a category of its own. I haven't managed yet to track down a copy of Omissi's "Air Power and Colonial Control", but I intend to do so soon. In the meantime, I will dig the article about Soviet air control vs. muslim guerrillas in Central Asia. Witten by one of the foremost Russian experts - either M. Maslov or V. Kotelnikov - on interwar Soviet aviation, it was published a few years ago in the aviation history periodical "Aviamaster" (I have my "Aviamaster" collection archived in card boxes - will check it also next Saturday). The variety of aircraft employed in combat, support and liasion roles was amazing. Besides from the ubiquous Polikarpov R-1 (a local hybrid/derivative of the DH.4/DH.9 delivered from 1923 onwards), it included modern all-metal, licence-made Junkers designs and the Tupolev R-3. The Soviets also started their experiments with armoured aircraft then.

I absolutely agree with what you wrote about a multinational study of air control between the wars. This could be an interesting editorial project for a brave enough small group (and also for an equally brave publisher).

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