Comments on: An alternative Battle of Britain — II http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/ Airpower and British society, 1908-1941 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:00:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-78587 Brett Holman Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:04:55 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-78587 You're right, the tails and wings are extremely similar. But as far as I can tell, the Fw 189 wasn't delivered to the Luftwaffe until September 1940, which is after Spaight published his book, so it seems unlikely that any Allied pilots saw any before then. Maybe a garbled intelligence report? You’re right, the tails and wings are extremely similar. But as far as I can tell, the Fw 189 wasn’t delivered to the Luftwaffe until September 1940, which is after Spaight published his book, so it seems unlikely that any Allied pilots saw any before then. Maybe a garbled intelligence report?

]]> By: smith http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-78342 smith Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:56:44 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-78342 Hi Note the wing shape and tail booms of the"Fw 198" are very similar to the wings and tails booms of the Fw 189 reconnaissance plane. Given the sketchy nature of what was being used could just be a blunder? /mis identification? Note that RAF pilots reported meeting the He 113 and (I think) he 100 as well in comabt in 1940. Hi
Note the wing shape and tail booms of the”Fw 198″ are very similar to the wings and tails booms of the Fw 189 reconnaissance plane.

Given the sketchy nature of what was being used could just be a blunder? /mis identification?

Note that RAF pilots reported meeting the He 113 and (I think) he 100 as well in comabt in 1940.

]]> By: Petike http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-70321 Petike Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:20:19 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-70321 LOL... Like the Peacemaker from Crimson Skies... :-) LOL… Like the Peacemaker from Crimson Skies… :-)

]]> By: Airminded · An alternative Blitz http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-51647 Airminded · An alternative Blitz Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:51:16 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-51647 [...] year I talked about J. M. Spaight’s The Sky’s the Limit (here, here and here), and how its account of the then-developing Battle of Britain was somewhat surprising to [...] [...] year I talked about J. M. Spaight’s The Sky’s the Limit (here, here and here), and how its account of the then-developing Battle of Britain was somewhat surprising to [...]

]]> By: Airminded · An alternative Battle of Britain — III http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-2243 Airminded · An alternative Battle of Britain — III Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:21:32 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-2243 [...] [Cross-posted at Revise and Dissent.] So, I’ve looked at J. M. Spaight’s predictions in The Sky’s the Limit about how the British fighters would fare in the Battle of Britain, and how the German ones would too. All that remains is to examine his thoughts on the German bombers. [...] [...] [Cross-posted at Revise and Dissent.] So, I’ve looked at J. M. Spaight’s predictions in The Sky’s the Limit about how the British fighters would fare in the Battle of Britain, and how the German ones would too. All that remains is to examine his thoughts on the German bombers. [...]

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-2030 Brett Holman Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:50:55 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-2030 A helpful comment from a reader on the Fw 198: <blockquote> It never existed. <br /> Bill Gunston covers this in "Plane Speaking" (1-85260-166-3, in Chapter 23 "The Luftwaffe that wasn't" there is over a page on the myth.He eventually assumed it somehow came from the Dutch de Schelde S21 which was almost complete in 1940 but never flew.</blockquote> I found a photo of the S21 on a <a href="http://www.obliczahistorii.pl/samoloty/index.php?s=galerie&art=2" rel="nofollow">Polish forum</a>, along with a bunch of other contemporary pusher aeroplanes -- some of them of them twin boom. The French Hanriot H-115 is fairly similar in configuration to the Vampire, and it flew in 1934, so the basic idea was not unknown. Still, none of them match the Vampire as well as the mythical Fw 198 does ... A helpful comment from a reader on the Fw 198:

It never existed.

Bill Gunston covers this in “Plane Speaking” (1-85260-166-3, in Chapter 23 “The Luftwaffe that wasn’t” there is over a page on the myth.He eventually assumed it somehow came from the Dutch de Schelde S21 which was almost complete in 1940 but never flew.

I found a photo of the S21 on a Polish forum, along with a bunch of other contemporary pusher aeroplanes — some of them of them twin boom. The French Hanriot H-115 is fairly similar in configuration to the Vampire, and it flew in 1934, so the basic idea was not unknown. Still, none of them match the Vampire as well as the mythical Fw 198 does …

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-1992 Brett Holman Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:12:47 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-1992 Ah, well spotted Chris! I knew it looked familar somehow, and that's why. It really is extremely similar. There were a few twin boom aircraft designs around, including at least one pusher (<a href="http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p52.html" rel="nofollow">Bell XP-52</a>, designed in 1939 but never built). But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the drawings of the Fw 198 inspired the Vampire -- I'm sure de Havilland would have had a copy of <em>The Aeroplane</em> or two floating around the tea room! Ah, well spotted Chris! I knew it looked familar somehow, and that’s why. It really is extremely similar. There were a few twin boom aircraft designs around, including at least one pusher (Bell XP-52, designed in 1939 but never built). But I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the drawings of the Fw 198 inspired the Vampire — I’m sure de Havilland would have had a copy of The Aeroplane or two floating around the tea room!

]]> By: Alex http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-1986 Alex Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:42:48 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-1986 The resemblance to the De Havilland Vamp is truly uncanny. The P-38 Lightning was similar in the tail, central nacelle and bristling noseful of cannon but twin-engined. Much later (autumn 1944) there was a German fighter of a similar general arrangement with an engine in each end of the nacelle (bit like a Cessna 337), the Dornier 335. At least apocryphally, the He-112 is supposed to have performed rather better than the Me-109 in the competitive trial held to decide which one would be adopted by the Luftwaffe, until either Ernst Udet or Erhard Milch took one up for a spin and crashed it. The resemblance to the De Havilland Vamp is truly uncanny. The P-38 Lightning was similar in the tail, central nacelle and bristling noseful of cannon but twin-engined.

Much later (autumn 1944) there was a German fighter of a similar general arrangement with an engine in each end of the nacelle (bit like a Cessna 337), the Dornier 335.

At least apocryphally, the He-112 is supposed to have performed rather better than the Me-109 in the competitive trial held to decide which one would be adopted by the Luftwaffe, until either Ernst Udet or Erhard Milch took one up for a spin and crashed it.

]]> By: Chris Williams http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-1980 Chris Williams Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:12:51 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-1980 Geoffrey de Havilland picks up an old copy of the Aeroplane in 1942 and says to himself "You could get a centrifugal jet engine in the back of that Fw198 nacelle." Result: the Vampire. Or is it just me? I certainly can't think of anything that existed in 1940 which looked like that 'Fw198', but I could be wrong. Geoffrey de Havilland picks up an old copy of the Aeroplane in 1942 and says to himself “You could get a centrifugal jet engine in the back of that Fw198 nacelle.” Result: the Vampire.

Or is it just me? I certainly can’t think of anything that existed in 1940 which looked like that ‘Fw198′, but I could be wrong.

]]> By: Airminded · An alternative Battle of Britain — I http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-1974 Airminded · An alternative Battle of Britain — I Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:21:18 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/08/11/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-ii/#comment-1974 [...] So the Battle of Britain Spaight expected was different to the one that was actually unfolding as he wrote. And that’s just for the British side of things—his thoughts on the German aircraft were even more ‘alternative’. I’ll discuss them in the second part of the post. Quoted in Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of Britain (London: Aurum Press, 2001), 84. J. M. Spaight, The Sky’s the Limit (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1940), 122. Ibid., facing 108. air-minded, adj. [...] [...] So the Battle of Britain Spaight expected was different to the one that was actually unfolding as he wrote. And that’s just for the British side of things—his thoughts on the German aircraft were even more ‘alternative’. I’ll discuss them in the second part of the post. Quoted in Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of Britain (London: Aurum Press, 2001), 84. J. M. Spaight, The Sky’s the Limit (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1940), 122. Ibid., facing 108. air-minded, adj. [...]

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