Comments on: An alternative Battle of Britain -- I http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i Airpower and British society, 1908-1941 Wed, 23 May 2012 10:08:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-153477 Brett Holman Wed, 17 Nov 2010 04:16:21 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-153477 Thanks, JDK. Thanks, JDK.

]]> By: JDK http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-153338 JDK Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:13:28 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-153338 Hi Bill, If you contact Brett with your e-mail address, and Bill's full name, I may be able to help a bit further. We published a book on the Defiant, and although it doesn't go into aircrew details, we have some contacts who have more Defiant history. During the actual battle there was only 264 and 141 Sqns equipped with the Defiant, but as Brett's pointed out 307 (and other units) were forming up then (but switched to night fighting). Alternatively you can contact me via the link in my 'JDK' header in this reply. Hi Bill,
If you contact Brett with your e-mail address, and Bill's full name, I may be able to help a bit further. We published a book on the Defiant, and although it doesn't go into aircrew details, we have some contacts who have more Defiant history.

During the actual battle there was only 264 and 141 Sqns equipped with the Defiant, but as Brett's pointed out 307 (and other units) were forming up then (but switched to night fighting).

Alternatively you can contact me via the link in my 'JDK' header in this reply.

]]> By: Roy Downs http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-153317 Roy Downs Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:26:29 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-153317 Thanks Brett, it was just a shot in the dark but thanks anyway Thanks Brett, it was just a shot in the dark but thanks anyway

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-151574 Brett Holman Thu, 21 Oct 2010 03:38:39 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-151574 Sorry, Roy, I can't help you with an answer. I can tell you that between September 1940 and August 1941 there was a Polish Defiant squadron, 307, which would presumably be the one your friend served with. However it does not seem to have been based at Hawkinge at any point (which was a small forward aerodrome, not the place you'd put Defiants anyway). But I could be wrong! There are some links on the Wikipedia page, which might help you more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._307_Polish_Night_Fighter_Squadron#External_links Sorry, Roy, I can't help you with an answer. I can tell you that between September 1940 and August 1941 there was a Polish Defiant squadron, 307, which would presumably be the one your friend served with. However it does not seem to have been based at Hawkinge at any point (which was a small forward aerodrome, not the place you'd put Defiants anyway). But I could be wrong!

There are some links on the Wikipedia page, which might help you more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._307_Polish_Night_Fighter_Squadron#External_links

]]> By: Roy Downs http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-151417 Roy Downs Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:24:34 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-151417 I had a very good friend called Bill who lived in Gravesend Kent and only died in 2006 I was always given to understand that he was stationed at Hawkhinge in Kent during the Battle of Britain he was a air gunner in the Defiant with mainly Polish pilots who he stated were very good pilots but almost mad they crashed somewhere in Kent he managed to get out of the plane but the polish pilot was killed ,does that ring any bell for anybody I had a very good friend called Bill who lived in Gravesend Kent and only died in 2006 I was always given to understand that he was stationed at Hawkhinge in Kent during the Battle of Britain he was a air gunner in the Defiant with mainly Polish pilots who he stated were very good pilots but almost mad they crashed somewhere in Kent he managed to get out of the plane but the polish pilot was killed ,does that ring any bell for anybody

]]> By: Erik Lund http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-124986 Erik Lund Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:36:38 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-124986 If only the Bowyers believed in footnotes. However, the Putnam book on the AAE&E lists trials of the Defiant in an army co-op role. If only the Bowyers believed in footnotes. However, the Putnam book on the AAE&E lists trials of the Defiant in an army co-op role.

]]> By: Ric Pelvin http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-124565 Ric Pelvin Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:16:26 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-124565 The rationale for the Defiant was explained in an article by Alfred Price in one of the monthly aviation enthusiast magazines (Flypast?) a bit over a year ago. When it was conceived the catastrophic collapse of France wasn't foreseen and any German bombers would have to come from Germany, beyond the range of single seat escort fighters. The bombers would have to remain in formation for mutual protection. The Defiants would fly, in vics, of course, under the bomber formation and fire up into them as some sort of precursor to Schrage Musik. This would disperse the bomber formation, breaking up its interlocking fields of defensive fire, and allowing the conventional fighters to pick off the dispersed aircraft. The place of the Bf110 long range fighter in this scenario is not considered. In respect of the Defiant and the AASF, Bowers notes in _Aircraft of the Few_ that a 'Field Force' role was seen for the turret fighter, but gives no indication of how it would be deployed tactically. The rationale for the Defiant was explained in an article by Alfred Price in one of the monthly aviation enthusiast magazines (Flypast?) a bit over a year ago.

When it was conceived the catastrophic collapse of France wasn't foreseen and any German bombers would have to come from Germany, beyond the range of single seat escort fighters. The bombers would have to remain in formation for mutual protection. The Defiants would fly, in vics, of course, under the bomber formation and fire up into them as some sort of precursor to Schrage Musik. This would disperse the bomber formation, breaking up its interlocking fields of defensive fire, and allowing the conventional fighters to pick off the dispersed aircraft.

The place of the Bf110 long range fighter in this scenario is not considered.

In respect of the Defiant and the AASF, Bowers notes in _Aircraft of the Few_ that a 'Field Force' role was seen for the turret fighter, but gives no indication of how it would be deployed tactically.

]]> By: Erik Lund http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-124164 Erik Lund Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:18:15 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-124164 The Defiant was being tested for the Army Co-op role by this time, though. It was part of the whole conceptual problem of "what's the ideal successor to the Bristol Fighter?" So it would probably have got into to France at some point, though probably not the AASF And not to get all JDK here, but I have a hard time forgiving a design that apparently routinely blew a fuse trying to rotate the turret into position for the air gunner to bail out. The Defiant was being tested for the Army Co-op role by this time, though. It was part of the whole conceptual problem of "what's the ideal successor to the Bristol Fighter?" So it would probably have got into to France at some point, though probably not the AASF
And not to get all JDK here, but I have a hard time forgiving a design that apparently routinely blew a fuse trying to rotate the turret into position for the air gunner to bail out.

]]> By: Jonathan Waggoner http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-124130 Jonathan Waggoner Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:58:20 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-124130 Historically I believe Fighter command judged the Battle of Britain to have been over on September 16, 1940. But Churchill didn't really consider it over until he was informed that operation Sea Lion had been called off by Hitler and the bomber squadron's were transferred to Poland to prepare for the invasion of Russian in June 1941. So Somewhere around March or May victory was assured. There was much bombing and night fighting after the Blitz all through the winter of 40-41 and the Bristol Beaufighter with the new radar came into its own. Of course some fighter sweeps occurred and the occasional lone night bombers, usually fast Junkers 88 continued to harass fighter command and channel shipping. Probably the greatest failure of Bomber and fighter command that next year was the Scharnhorst and other battle cruisers as they made the Channel Dash. Amazing this could have occurred but it did. That was the last major operation of the Luftwaffe in the area until the 1943 air campaign over occupied Europe that I know of. And no I'm not discounting the RAF bomber command night campaign, only saying it wasn't part of the Battle of Britain per se. Historically I believe Fighter command judged the Battle of Britain to have been over on September 16, 1940. But Churchill didn't really consider it over until he was informed that operation Sea Lion had been called off by Hitler and the bomber squadron's were transferred to Poland to prepare for the invasion of Russian in June 1941. So Somewhere around March or May victory was assured. There was much bombing and night fighting after the Blitz all through the winter of 40-41 and the Bristol Beaufighter with the new radar came into its own. Of course some fighter sweeps occurred and the occasional lone night bombers, usually fast Junkers 88 continued to harass fighter command and channel shipping. Probably the greatest failure of Bomber and fighter command that next year was the Scharnhorst and other battle cruisers as they made the Channel Dash. Amazing this could have occurred but it did. That was the last major operation of the Luftwaffe in the area until the 1943 air campaign over occupied Europe that I know of. And no I'm not discounting the RAF bomber command night campaign, only saying it wasn't part of the Battle of Britain per se.

]]> By: Brett Holman http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/comment-page-1/#comment-120728 Brett Holman Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:06:01 +0000 http://airminded.org/2006/07/31/an-alternative-battle-of-britain-i/#comment-120728 Oops then! Oops then!

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